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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 26, 2015 9:51:40 GMT
Oil makes sense for rust protection when you have moving parts, such as in a gun, due to it also being a lubricant. But with a sword, why mess around with oil? Wax makes more sense to me (e.g., carnauba wax, which is used for car wax, shoe polish, etcetera). Wax not only protects metal from rust (due to sealing out oxygen and water, the same as oil does), but it is far tougher. Oil can be wiped off easily and/or dry up over time, while wax takes a while to wear off (it is tough enough to last a while in harsh environments such as on cars and hardwood floors). It also offers a small degree of protection against scuffs, while oil does not. Additionally, wax is dry to the touch, while oil is wet/messy. Some wax products, such as car wax, contain mild "polishing" abrasives; you may or may not want that for use on a sword. Pure carnauba wax like this is non-abrasive.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 26, 2015 10:08:12 GMT
I don't use either, myself, but I think the "wipes off easily" aspect is part of the appeal of oil over wax. Many use wax for long-term storage of their swords, but day-to-day oil is king, because it's easiest to get off the sword and interferes less with cutting. That is, to my understanding. Someone will correct me shortly.
I've never had an issue with blades rusting, and I consider myself lucky for that because I don't exactly live in an arid environment... However, even the one sword I have in only a tanned leather sheath has never had any rust. Even the sword I hadn't looked at in some three years when I checked it last for something, I don't remember what, was as shiny and clean as the last time I looked at it.
Others have not been so fortunate, and many of them do use wax...but it seems oil is more accessible, cheaper, and easier to deal with.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 26, 2015 10:34:25 GMT
I don't use either, myself, but I think the "wipes off easily" aspect is part of the appeal of oil over wax. Many use wax for long-term storage of their swords, but day-to-day oil is king, because it's easiest to get off the sword and interferes less with cutting. That is, to my understanding. Someone will correct me shortly. Wax and oil are both lubricants, though oil is generally a better lubricant (while it lasts anyway). I don't believe that either one would have a significant effect on cutting, but what little effect they would have would be on the side of beneficial, due to the lubricity (which results in less friction as the blade is wedging its way through an object). In other words, if you wipe off the oil from a blade before cutting, it won't cut through objects as efficiently as a waxed or oiled blade. That small benefit from the lubricity of oil will mostly be gone after the first cut through something thick though, because it will mostly get wiped off during the cut, while wax would stick around for a while.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 26, 2015 12:10:56 GMT
Yes, that's true, but I think it was the thinner nature of the oil that made it preferable to wax. I want to say I've read before that wax interfered with the edge somehow that was unfavorable in cutting, but again, it's been a long time since anybody's discussed it. There's no denying a slippery blade goes through things more easily. I think the reason oil is preferred to wax is because it shows its own marring less and generally lends itself to a more even coat that doesn't interfere overly much with the scabbard's own methods of water dispersal. Again, I don't use either, so I'll let someone else who does chime in. I'm just throwing out what I've heard from others, because nobody else is taking. 
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Post by RicWilly on Feb 26, 2015 13:10:06 GMT
I don't know why people use wax or oil, I use silicone spray. I've used oil and wax and the silicone gives me the best result. Easy to apply, spray it on a rag and wipe down the blade or spray directly on the blade and wipe it down. Never had a problem with rust since I been using it, several years now. To each their own I reckon.
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Post by Mikemech on Feb 26, 2015 17:11:41 GMT
Again, I don't use either, so I'll let someone else who does chime in. I'm just throwing out what I've heard from others, because nobody else is taking.  I'll bite. I generally don't store with a coating. I use (about once a month) Eagle One wading polish from the auto store. It wipes on like an oil, I wait for it to dry to a haze, then polish off with a clean cloth. Nice luster. They're a soaked wading cloth ready to go and can be used many times. Even if I don't wait for it to dry to a haze, the initial application cleans it up nicely. I have coated a few blades I was storing for 3 years, when I came back to them, the haze was still coating the blades and they were no worse for wear.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Feb 26, 2015 17:17:12 GMT
Steel blades will have pits on the surface. The higher the polish, the smaller the pits. Putting wax on these pits could trap moisture and lock it in. If you use an oil that displaces the water in the pits (or a spray where the propellants might evaporate the water) then you might get better rust protection. Wax will not flow into the pits as easily as a thin oil or silicone. That's what I have heard but I've never tested it.
I use Fluid Film on my EDC blades and butchers wax on my historical blades. Why? The historical blades don't get handled and are on dislay. They would attract dust and would have to be maintained. I just wax them once in years and done.
For my EDC blades applying oil and wiping it off is quicker than applying wax.
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Post by Voltan on Feb 26, 2015 19:26:29 GMT
I don't know why people use wax or oil, I use silicone spray. I've used oil and wax and the silicone gives me the best result. Easy to apply, spray it on a rag and wipe down the blade or spray directly on the blade and wipe it down. Never had a problem with rust since I been using it, several years now. To each their own I reckon. Me too.
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Post by Afoo on Feb 26, 2015 20:04:03 GMT
I use renaissance wax on the parts of the sword I actually handle, and oil for the blade. I find that renaissance wax does not make the blade look as shiny as a coat of oil. I also think someone mentioned that oil has the added property of displacing any water or salts which are on the blade, whereas wax does not have that same ability.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 26, 2015 20:04:23 GMT
Wax and oil are both lubricants, [...] Some oils and waxes are lubricants, and some a sticky. (Consider surfboard wax.) Don't want one that's too sticky, but this isn't a big deal for swords. Wax: more permanent Oil: easier to apply, re-apply, remove Want to polish a sword? Sharpen a sword? Want wax on your stones? Better remove it first. Easier to remove oil. Cut with it? Will you need to clean gunk off the blade afterwards? That's easier if oiled. Either way, need to re-oil or re-wax afterwards. So oil is more convenient for swords you cut with often. But wax has its advantages, as you pointed out in your OP. Wax is better for display only swords, swords you take along places for kids (and adults) to handle, and more. As others wrote above, silicone sprays/wipes can be great choices, too. A lot of katana owners like oil for the ritual aspect. Even if a silicone spray is better, they'll use oil, for tradition.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 26, 2015 20:04:35 GMT
I’ve had blades rust within a week or so after oiling, certainly in less than a month. Silicone spray no doubt will work fine but it is not accessible to me, and I don’t care to import. I live in the tropics with humidity and much rain. The best preservative I’ve come across is LPS-3 but unfortunately that is not readily available and costly to me although I do have some on hand. The most practical is auto car paste wax as it is cheap and easily had. I smear either on and leave it. While not attractive in that state it is easy to see that a surface is coated due to its milky haze. I’ve never have seen rust with either but can see why some people who like to see a showy glossy clean blade would object. I could polish both off but feel better when I can see it as I know there is coverage. The manufacturer of LPS-3 states that a coating is good for two years and I believe it.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Feb 26, 2015 20:43:19 GMT
I use renaissance wax on the parts of the sword I actually handle, and oil for the blade. I find that renaissance wax does not make the blade look as shiny as a coat of oil. I also think someone mentioned that oil has the added property of displacing any water or salts which are on the blade, whereas wax does not have that same ability. Ordinary oil doesn't displace water, at least not in the way that the term "water displacement" is used for oil products. WD-40 for example, was designed specifically to displace water ("WD" stands for water displacement). Regular oil does nothing to break water up into smaller droplets (emulsify), so the surface tension of the larger droplets of water can hold it to the surface of the steel even when covered with straight oil. Water-displacing oils such as WD-40 have added ingredients such as alcohols to break up the water and lift it from the surface of the metal. Salts aren't necessarily taken care of with oil either; generally, ordinary water is the best cleaning solution for salts. This is how guns fired with corrosive primers (corrosive due to salts) have to be cleaned. If you don't first clean them with water, but rather use ordinary cleaning solvents and oil, the steel will corrode. The typical cleaning method is to use water to dissolve and rinse away the salts, then WD-40 to displace the water, then cleaning solvents, and then coat with a light film of oil. In any event, it is best to properly clean and dry the surface of steel before protecting it with oil or wax. Fortunately, this is easy to do with a sword blade. For things such as wet guns or carburetors, it isn't so easy just to wipe the water off of them, which is where products like WD-40 come in handy.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Feb 28, 2015 3:50:59 GMT
Personally, I LIKE water in my carb. Or, at least, downstream of it. Water injection is a poor man's race fuel. 
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Feb 28, 2015 4:43:48 GMT
I would imagine wax would be more difficult to completely remove from a blade, at least more time consuming than removing choji oil. After cutting with my sword I spray it down with Windex, wipe it clean, hit it again with 90% isopropyl alcohol, dry the blade and then use a soft cloth I've kept in a plastic container and semi-saturated with clean oil, to put a thin coat back on the blade. Quick, cheap, easy, and I've never had rust issues. I'd likely use renwax if I was storing it long term.
-Josh
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Post by conan9 on Mar 1, 2015 10:36:31 GMT
There have been many comprehensive lab tests which compared products to see which offered the best rust protection & here's a quick wrap up of one that tested 48 different brands: Winners (long term moisture exposure to bare steel with no rusting whatsoever): WD40 Specialist Corrosion Inhibitor & Frog Lube. Losers (significant rust after long term moisture exposure): waxes & oils (all varieties). Google up "Rust Prevention Tests" & check 'em out.
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 1, 2015 13:18:50 GMT
There have been many comprehensive lab tests which compared products to see which offered the best rust protection & here's a quick wrap up one that tested 48 different brands: Winners (long term moisture exposure to bare steel with no rusting whatsoever): WD40 Specialist Corrosion Inhibitor & Frog Lube. Losers (significant rust after long term moisture exposure): waxes & oils (all varieties). Google up "Rust Prevention Tests" & check 'em out. Neither one of them did too well in this test: 3 weeks outside with occasional rain, and they both rusted enough to cause significant pitting. I would be very surprised if that brake rotor would have rusted at all under those exact conditions (which weren't particularly harsh) with a good coat of wax, or even grease, on there. As an example of the effectiveness of grease: a few years ago I replaced the entire brake system in my '69 Dodge Charger (it is a beater, but solid), which included a new master cylinder, which was raw cast iron. It was completely coated with rust within a week or two. That didn't harm anything from a functional perspective, but it was ugly. Last summer I converted to front disc brakes (it originally came with drum brakes, which are scary in the front), and this required a different style of master cylinder, so I bought another new one, also raw cast iron. This time I dipped my finger in grease and rubbed it all over the surface of the cast iron. Last I checked, it was still 100% rust-free (which would have been a couple of months after I coated it with grease; I can't easily check it right now because it is under a few feet of snow). I also make a habit of coating threaded fasteners with grease, and ground points, and I haven't had any of those rust on me either. However, in most rust/corrosion tests, they do salt spray tests, which is a much harsher environment than simply being outside in humidity and occasional rain. Salt is an abrasive (and also a catalyst for corrosion), and combined with water pressure, can quickly remove coatings such as wax, oil, or grease, leaving the metal unprotected. At that point, it is obviously going to corrode very quickly. A product like WD40 Specialist Corrosion Inhibitor or Frog Lube, which is applied to heated metal, and gets into the pores, would stay on there longer under such conditions. But in conditions that aren't harsh enough to quickly remove wax, grease, or oil, I suspect that they would fare better. In other words, it seems to me that wax, grease, or oil offer more complete protection, but they are more easily removed from the equation, while products like WD40 Specialist Corrosion Inhibitor or Frog Lube offer less complete protection, but stick around longer under harsh conditions, due to getting into the pores of the metal. Preventing rust is very simple. The formation of rust requires 2 components: oxygen and water. If you can create a barrier to either one of those components, rust can not happen. Wax and oil (and grease, which is just oil emulsified in a soap base) are both water and oxygen impermeable. I would like to read the 48 brands test though; do you have a link?
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Mar 1, 2015 13:47:19 GMT
Preventing rust is very simple. The formation of rust requires 2 components: oxygen and water. If you can create a barrier to either one of those components, rust can not happen. Wax and oil (and grease, which is just oil emulsified in a soap base) are both water and oxygen impermeable. Well you go and get a 44 gallon plastic drum, (the one with the screw on lid) place your swords in the drum then drop in a block of dry ice, (carbon dioxide) wait till the "mist" is flowing over the top and screw on the lid, no oxygen = no rust. Plastic food wrap, cling wrap, - neatly wrap the blades and place in a deep freeze, no free water molecules = no rust. Realistically, most oils will evaporate, gun grease, especially the mil-spec stuff is great, (looks gross) so a silicon spray designed to protect AND stay put such as dry-lube is one of the better options. After all that I use Johnson's paste floor wax, tough, stays put, looks good
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Post by MaximRecoil on Mar 1, 2015 14:07:49 GMT
After all that I use Johnson's paste floor wax, tough, stays put, looks good That's ideal for a sword in my opinion. As for silicone spray, I don't know how well it would do over time with regard to rust prevention, or how easily it is wiped off. I use it for two things: lubricating the steel pivot ball on a 1980s Nintendo arcade machine joystick (it works great for this because it is so light; oil and especially grease make the stick sluggish when returning to center), and for lubricating the wipe strip on car windows, which makes them easier to roll up and down (it doesn't harm rubber like petroleum-based lubricants can). Unfortunately, the good stuff (3M 08897) is expensive; a dollar an ounce or so.
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Greg E
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Post by Greg E on Mar 1, 2015 14:14:47 GMT
I use oil, CLP mostly. It gives me the excuse to pull them out of the safe occasionally and wipe the oil off, admire them then re-oil and replace.
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Post by Voltan on Mar 1, 2015 18:30:18 GMT
As for silicone spray, I don't know how well it would do over time with regard to rust prevention, or how easily it is wiped off. I use it for two things: lubricating the steel pivot ball on a 1980s Nintendo arcade machine joystick (it works great for this because it is so light; oil and especially grease make the stick sluggish when returning to center), and for lubricating the wipe strip on car windows, which makes them easier to roll up and down (it doesn't harm rubber like petroleum-based lubricants can). Unfortunately, the good stuff (3M 08897) is expensive; a dollar an ounce or so. I do know how well it does over time...I've been using it for three years now. The only time I have to clean my blades and re-apply it is after a cutting session. It's super easy to use, and no mess at all. I clean the blades with 90% rubbing alcohol, dry with a soft cloth, then spray the silicone spray directly on the blade. I wrap a clean cloth around the blade, and give it two wipes from the hilt to the tip. The spray I use is of excellent quality. I work in the parts dept at a Toyota dealer, so I use Toyota silicone spray, part number 00289-2SS00. As you mentioned, it also has many other uses around the house as well.
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