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Post by LG Martial Arts on Feb 12, 2015 12:54:48 GMT
I'm not much of a gun enthusiast any more, not having used one for at least 10 years (used to be really good though, since my eyesight is still at 43 yrs old 20/15 and I had lots of practice growing up with my extended family). But seeing as I did grow up on a farm where my grandfather ALWAYS (concealed) carried his .38 revolver, and also lived in a household with relatives (5, & 10 years older than me) who at some point in their lives joined the military, I was raised to respect all kinds of weapons, including guns/rifles, and as such, went hunting/target shooting on many occassions with friends and family. OK, enough of my background... I recently saw some promotional vids/docs for a new Precision Guided Firearm (restricted sale to the US and "friendly nations" only). I'm really impressed with the capabilities of the rifles, even if they are cost prohibitive. Here's a link to their website: TrackingPoint Precision Guided FirearmsWhat do you all think? This will definitely help people who aren't great marksmen hit the targets they're after... do you think it's a good idea? I also know some people are purists, and wouldn't want to own/shoot any of these, but can you explain why? Thanks in advance.
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ShooterMike
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 12, 2015 14:56:20 GMT
I'm of two minds on this one. I think the system is a great accomplishment of technology. I think it can significantly aid in making first-round hits at extended distances, though there are some limitations that the company likes to gloss over. And obviously, it's quite an expensive system.
On the one hand, anything that helps make a first-round long-range hit on an important target is very valuable. Be it in the military realm or in the private sector for things like pest eradication, etc. So for those uses I applaud the technology.
On the other hand, long range riflemanship (is that a word?) is more art than science. That art requires hard-earned skill that can't be bought, though it is an expensive proposition to develop that skill. The skills and intuition required to correctly read wind and atmospheric conditions, determine corrections and apply a bullet to a small target "way out yonder" are something to rightly be proud of. Cheapening that ability through being able to "buy first-round hits" at long distances rubs the old shooting curmudgeon in me the wrong way. But only a little.
The limitations of the PGF system, as I see it, are its inability to interpret the wind all along the bullet's path. That's one of the hardest things about shooting long distances already, and PGF only addresses about half of that equation. It allows you to enter wind velocity and direction, but doesn't have a method of compensating for variable wind conditions on the way to the target. And those conditions exist more often than not when shooting other than on a range.
In summation, hurray for technology. But don't neglect the importance of marksmanship. That fancy tech always seems to break or go on the fritz at critical moments.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Feb 12, 2015 15:31:59 GMT
Call be a dinosaur but I like the days when man was the Warrior not technology. Technology has a bad habit of failing you when you least expect it. I use a GPS in the woods but I always carry a compass.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Feb 12, 2015 17:02:53 GMT
Call be a dinosaur but I like the days when man was the Warrior not technology. Technology has a bad habit of failing you when you least expect it. I use a GPS in the woods but I always carry a compass. Gunnar, I appreciate what you're saying, that basically, training and instincts are better than relying on newer technology - but even that compass you use as a backup is a form of technology, older, but technology still Shootermike - thanks for your input as well. I also agree that shooting long distance (hell, any distance in any situation) can be and is an art. These rifles are amazing at what they can do, but I agree with your assertion that it does indeed take away how to "learn" to do it the right way without the need for fancy gear.
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Feb 12, 2015 19:18:35 GMT
Incredible and very useful technology. I read through that link on the features and how it works, very impressive I must say, time and increased demand in the future would make this technology better and more cost effective for sure.
I do like how this primarily makes long range rifle shooting easier and quicker- you tag it, align the sights, squeeze and technology does the rest. Something like this could also be applied to handgun shooting but at the 3-25 yard ranges, I'm not sure how much more assistance I could utilize for my 1911s, old Sig 228 or Ruger Single Actions... But if technology makes the end goal of killing the enemy or hitting the target for bragging rights that much easier, I'm all for it.
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 12, 2015 21:34:18 GMT
I could just be an old stick in the mud, but I really don't see this technology being applied to any close range or fast breaking situations. There is just too much to do that require fine motor skills, as opposed to "point-gun, press-trigger, repeat rapidly as long as necessary."
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 12, 2015 21:59:56 GMT
I think the technology is still too young to be sure about its utility. There's never any end to gizmos when it comes to modern firearms, and most of them simply don't pan out. If you're getting back into the swing of things shooting wise and you want an AR platform, I'd strongly suggest a Colt LEO pattern carbine. The flattops are more versatile but even if you get one I'd suggest sticking with the screw-on irons to start with. Then get some training on it. Work up to longer ranges. Very long range, where this technology might actually matter, is not something most shooters ever really get into.
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Feb 12, 2015 22:37:49 GMT
Most definitely, I agree that at handgun shooting ranges of 3-25 yards or 1-25 yards there's no time at all under actual fighting conditions to 1. Point and Tag 2. Press Trigger and let the tech do the work and depends entirely on your fine motor skills, marksmanship and muscle memory to draw, aim and fire.
There's simply not enough time to safely use that fine technology, but I think for the guys who go to handgun ranges and use the table to rest their hands while they shoot and get tight groupings....may enjoy the expensive feature.
I'm not a fan of using that little table/bench thingy to prop your handgun just to get good looking small groupings but I see it all the time with some shooters, it's fine when zeroing in new sights but when you have to draw from concealed or from a night stand at 3am in the morning there won't be a benchrest/table to prop your gun on.
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Post by crazywolf on Feb 12, 2015 22:39:38 GMT
like everything else it's great till murphy shows up. After many years I still find simpler is always better the more complex something is the more likely it is to fail. It's a neat toy but in the real world I wouldn't want to trust it
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Feb 12, 2015 22:41:59 GMT
I may have missed this on their website but what happens if the smart gun gets wet?
Meathead the Bulldog pees on it or oops I drop it in the lake?
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 12, 2015 23:19:17 GMT
I may have missed this on their website but what happens if the smart gun gets wet? Meathead the Bulldog pees on it or oops I drop it in the lake? Darned good questions, and if those things affect the system unduly it'll go the way of all the other "great ideas" that nobody remembers. But we were saying the same things about Trijicon ACOGs and Aimpoints when they came out. Those concerns have all ended up being moot. Now the big questions are "Will it still work after it gets blown up by an IED or run over by a Stryker?"
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Feb 12, 2015 23:30:25 GMT
I may have missed this on their website but what happens if the smart gun gets wet? Meathead the Bulldog pees on it or oops I drop it in the lake? That was never addressed in the web page I linked to - although they did mention the US military did conduct tests on the system, so I can assume that they would have covered water immersion tests, and other extreme environmental tests. They did not say what the US gov't report said, stating it was confidential/secret, but did go on to mention how because of the testing, the smart guns are restricted for sale ONLY in the US and to friendly nations. Great question btw.
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Feb 12, 2015 23:41:58 GMT
At $7000 to $8000 per rifle it's pricier than me going out and paying full MSRP for a similar rifle + maybe $1200 to $2500 in optic(s) for example so I would hope the smart gun would survive an IED, environmental effects or the wheels of a truck.
It seems like it would most likely survive the rain/lake/mud/dog at the least. Really interesting stuff
Edited:
I have a Marlin lever action rifle that shots 45/70 rounds, I wonder how hilarious it would look with all the smart gun fire control equipment on there... /guilty pleasure
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Post by bigpete on Feb 13, 2015 1:42:05 GMT
Mate,I got a bloke at work who was telling me last night how he could shoot rabbits at 600m with a 22 rim fire ! :P with mad ass skills like that,why would someone like him even need a scope on a centre fire rifle to make long range hits,let alone the precision guided gizmo! (Please note sarcasm) :-)
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ShooterMike
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 13, 2015 2:31:23 GMT
Mate,I got a bloke at work who was telling me last night how he could shoot rabbits at 600m with a 22 rim fire ! HEH!!! I know that guy!
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Feb 13, 2015 4:42:51 GMT
We've got a couple of them on here, anyone up for skeet with a pistol grip shotgun.
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 13, 2015 18:43:42 GMT
Good lord, I didn't even see the price! For that you could get a top of the line AR platform in the chambering of your choice with ACOG, night vision and whatever else you wanted. All proven technology. And you've have plenty of money left over for training even at the best spots like Thunder Ranch.
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 14, 2015 13:31:33 GMT
Good lord, I didn't even see the price! For that you could get a top of the line AR platform in the chambering of your choice with ACOG, night vision and whatever else you wanted. All proven technology. And you've have plenty of money left over for training even at the best spots like Thunder Ranch. True. But that's not the type of application this technology is intended for. That is actually about half what I'd expect this to cost. That $7-8,000 won't even come close to covering the price of an Accuracy International AWM with a proper Schmidt & Bender optic and all the needed accessories to make the same shots, given you already have the skills necessary. I didn't read all their website, but I'm guessing the $7-8,000 price tag can't include a very good firearm too. It'd be a shame to rob the system by putting it on anything less than an Accuracy Inetrnational or comparable high-end rifle.
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 16, 2015 20:39:41 GMT
Well that begs the question--what is the application this technology is intended for? What is it these folks think is going to be accomplished by mounting an eight grand scope on an AR? As I understand the technology, it does NOT address wind, but relies on the SHOOTER to input wind speed and direction. Garbage in, garbage out. And at long range and extreme long range, wind is exceptionally difficult to deal with. The rest is just math, but unless you can tell what cross-winds are doing a quarter mile away you're going to have to guesstimate. Even a small gust can have a major impact that far away.
Also--you don't have to spend eight grand for a very nice sub-moa bolt action rifle. Not even close. And you don't actually need optics until you get out beyond four hundred meters or so. The best folks don't even need optics at all. Even good BPCR's with iron sights can reach out to a thousand.
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 16, 2015 23:18:45 GMT
Well that begs the question--what is the application this technology is intended for? What is it these folks think is going to be accomplished by mounting an eight grand scope on an AR? As I understand the technology, it does NOT address wind, but relies on the SHOOTER to input wind speed and direction. Garbage in, garbage out. And at long range and extreme long range, wind is exceptionally difficult to deal with. The rest is just math, but unless you can tell what cross-winds are doing a quarter mile away you're going to have to guesstimate. Even a small gust can have a major impact that far away. Also--you don't have to spend eight grand for a very nice sub-moa bolt action rifle. Not even close. And you don't actually need optics until you get out beyond four hundred meters or so. The best folks don't even need optics at all. Even good BPCR's with iron sights can reach out to a thousand. All that is valid on a square range with clear lighting conditions and cleared land. But out in the real world where it gets dark at the worst times, the sun is never in your favor, "targets" are camouflaged or actively hiding, not to mention they run and take cover and sometimes even shoot back, that isn't the case. The whole case for this tech is to eliminate trigger jerk and guessing on wind once you know wind velocity. Not saying this is magic or something. Not saying I would ever buy it. Just noting what they're trying to sell.
As far as what you said about wind, I couldn't agree more. And I think that's the biggest single limiting factor with the system, cost aside.
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