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Post by MEversbergII on Feb 3, 2015 20:21:04 GMT
I've been looking at jian lately. To my knowledge the leader for budget "jian" has always been the Practical Tai-Chi Sword: kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH2008But, I seem to recall an ebay forge also had one for not much more marketed as a "budget" jian with (iirc) limited customization options. I thought it was Huawei, but that does not seem to be the case. Anyone know what I may be (mis)remembering? Or, what else competes with the above? Thanks, M. |
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Feb 3, 2015 20:34:40 GMT
I've used this for a while sevenstarstrading.com/site/hanwei/cuttingjian/It's a hair under $300 and with shipping it goes over the $300 mark. It's a decent Jian but as far as sword quality goes... 1. The blade is roughly finished and looks even rougher than 550 grit, very grainy and rough 2. The edge is somewhat thin and roughly finished and not finely sharpened, I had to put it on my Worksharp belt sander to get a decent & more durable cutting edge. (roughly 35-40 degrees on each side) 3. The blade geometry is a flatten diamond, sort of lenticular, stiff enough for decent thrusting but the point of balance feels like it slightly favors cutting. It's balanced towards 50% thrusting and 50% cutting so to speak... 4. The fittings and hilt/tang are as solid as they come, no worries about breakage or issues. Comments about Heat Treatment and apparent hardness: This sword is springy and tough, I haven't had any severe chipping however my edge did get bent & rolled when hitting hardwood and really thin metal cookie cans. I don't mean hard swings either, I mean just merely tapping thin metal cookie cans lightly caused the thin and soft edge to roll. There was even some tiny chipping too when I lightly smacked a tin can, it barely cut (looked more like a scratch) into the tin can so the edge was pretty soft. Anyway, mines seem soft and tough but not hard enough to withstand any heavy use except on softwoods and thin hardwood, like really thin. Keep away from tin cans or anything metallic. Even after I resharpened the edge to be tougher and more robust it still got dinged up rather easily so the steel is seemingly tempered soft for this sword. |
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Post by daoferret on Feb 3, 2015 20:58:31 GMT
On the Cutting Jian,
It looks like Ray Skin under the leather Grip?
Where is the Point of Balance?
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Feb 3, 2015 22:24:43 GMT
It's dark oxblood ray skin under the leather wrap. I don't have the exact point of balance on me but will post the data on mines when I get home from work tonight.
Also, the handle material is a hard and durable resin that looks like wood but without issue of shrinkage/expansion, it fits the tang perfectly.
UPDATE:
Point of Balance from the very edge of wide hollow guard: 4 inches
Real Point of Balance from where Blade shoulder rests against hollow guard: nearly 6 inches
Blade length is about 31 inches from shoulders to tip, 29 inches if measured from the hollow decorative guard.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 3, 2015 22:31:14 GMT
My Hanwei Chinese Cutting Sword has POB 3.5" past the end of the guard. Since the guard is so wide, this isn't too close. Balance is good. Mine is 920g.
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Post by MEversbergII on Feb 4, 2015 16:01:37 GMT
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Post by daoferret on Feb 4, 2015 21:38:06 GMT
My Hanwei Chinese Cutting Sword has POB 3.5" past the end of the guard. Since the guard is so wide, this isn't too close. Balance is good. Mine is 920g. Weight sounds very nice. Not sure what you mean by "this isn't too close" though. The sword I usually use has the PoB ~2" past the end of the guard and it feels comfortable and really allows the sword to fly. I've been working with one closer to the 5" mark and it feels extremely point heavy and sluggish by comparison. I'd be more concerned that 3.5" might start to be more tip-heavy, than that it would be too close. Not an attack, just trying to understand where you think the PoB should ideally be and why? (it seems like you prefer it further from the hilt than I do and I'm trying to understand why) |
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Post by sonofarwyn on Feb 4, 2015 22:29:26 GMT
Sinosword/Jkoo are decent. If you are going to custom order, make SURE to let them know you plan on cutting with the sword and need a solid grip. The Chinese market is more about looks that use for a lot of blades, so they are not necessarily "battle ready" in the same sense that you get from Seven Stars, Dynasty Forge, or Hanwei. I dont personally own a Sinosword blade yet, but they area decent enough reputation. Hopefully one of the members that does can comment. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 4, 2015 22:47:26 GMT
The jian is a cut-and-thrust sword, not used with a shield/buckler or second weapon. So you mainly cut/thrust with the tip (to maximise range). For this, you want the forward pivot point to be close to the tip. This gives you (a) excellent point control, and (b) shock-free cuts with the tip. (A longsword should be balanced the same way, and plenty of one-handed cut and thrust swords are balanced the same way.) The point of balance should be placed to put the pivot point where you want it. Move the POB in closer by having a heavier pommel, and the pivot point moves outwards. For a jian, to have the POB at 2" will often put the pivot point way off the blade. Not good balance. The POB on the Hanwei Cutting jian is about 6" past my first knuckle when holding the sword (so maybe equivalent to about 5" POB on a Medieval European sword); it's not as close to the grip as 3.5" might suggest. Note that for a given blade, if you put on a heavier pommel to move the POB in, the sword becomes easier to hold (statically), but becomes harder to swing. How easy/hard it is to swing depends on the moment of inertia, and adding weight to the pommel increases it. But comparing different swords with similar pommels, one with POB further out will probably have more mass further out on the blade (maybe the blade is thicker closer to the tip). So swords with POB far out are often sluggish. (If it has a light blade and a light pommel or not pommel, it can be a light agile sword with the POB a long way out.) A bad sword with POB far out on the blade will be sluggish (but it's likely to be sluggish even with a POB closer in, because that would be achieved by a really heavy pommel). Basically, POB, by itself, matters a lot for holding the sword stationary, but doesn't really directly affect the handling. That depends on the moment of inertia and the locations of the pivot points. For a jian specifically, if you want a historically-realistic sword, you want the POB to be about 1/3 of the distance from the pommel to the tip (or maybe a bit further). I think having a historically accurate sword (at least as far as handling goes) is important when doing historical martial arts. I noted the POB and its closeness because there are widespread misconceptions about jian, such as they should balance right on the guard or in really close. Past discussion: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/34241/sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/41715/The forward pivot point is also called the centre of percussion in science, engineering, sport science - pretty much everywhere outside swords. It has nothing to do with nodes of vibration. For swords, "centre of percussion" has come to usually mean "node of vibration", due, I think, to vague late 19th/early 20th century writing about swords. For a fairly comprehensive article, see www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htm and, for a discussion, www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8088 |
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Post by Turok on Feb 6, 2015 8:47:14 GMT
The jian is a cut-and-thrust sword, not used with a shield/buckler or second weapon. So you mainly cut/thrust with the tip (to maximise range). For this, you want the forward pivot point to be close to the tip. This gives you (a) excellent point control, and (b) shock-free cuts with the tip. (A longsword should be balanced the same way, and plenty of one-handed cut and thrust swords are balanced the same way.) The point of balance should be placed to put the pivot point where you want it. Move the POB in closer by having a heavier pommel, and the pivot point moves outwards. For a jian, to have the POB at 2" will often put the pivot point way off the blade. Not good balance. The POB on the Hanwei Cutting jian is about 6" past my first knuckle when holding the sword (so maybe equivalent to about 5" POB on a Medieval European sword); it's not as close to the grip as 3.5" might suggest. Note that for a given blade, if you put on a heavier pommel to move the POB in, the sword becomes easier to hold (statically), but becomes harder to swing. How easy/hard it is to swing depends on the moment of inertia, and adding weight to the pommel increases it. But comparing different swords with similar pommels, one with POB further out will probably have more mass further out on the blade (maybe the blade is thicker closer to the tip). So swords with POB far out are often sluggish. (If it has a light blade and a light pommel or not pommel, it can be a light agile sword with the POB a long way out.) A bad sword with POB far out on the blade will be sluggish (but it's likely to be sluggish even with a POB closer in, because that would be achieved by a really heavy pommel). Basically, POB, by itself, matters a lot for holding the sword stationary, but doesn't really directly affect the handling. That depends on the moment of inertia and the locations of the pivot points. For a jian specifically, if you want a historically-realistic sword, you want the POB to be about 1/3 of the distance from the pommel to the tip (or maybe a bit further). I think having a historically accurate sword (at least as far as handling goes) is important when doing historical martial arts. I noted the POB and its closeness because there are widespread misconceptions about jian, such as they should balance right on the guard or in really close. Past discussion: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/34241/sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/41715/The forward pivot point is also called the centre of percussion in science, engineering, sport science - pretty much everywhere outside swords. It has nothing to do with nodes of vibration. For swords, "centre of percussion" has come to usually mean "node of vibration", due, I think, to vague late 19th/early 20th century writing about swords. For a fairly comprehensive article, see www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htm and, for a discussion, www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8088Good info as always Timo! The Hanwei Cutting Jian is a excellent sword and does have full tang and a handle that fits it snugly. The handle is a bit long but the sword is very well balanced imho. Unlike other production Chinese swords it places function over aesthetics and I definitely recommend it! |
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Post by ineffableone on Feb 7, 2015 21:53:29 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 7, 2015 22:44:04 GMT
The review: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/27613/Long, heavy (but not excessively, from both historical and practical viewpoints), supposed to have good point control. (I'd buy their dao first, but the jian looks OK.) |
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Post by daoferret on Feb 10, 2015 19:25:05 GMT
The jian is a cut-and-thrust sword, not used with a shield/buckler or second weapon. So you mainly cut/thrust with the tip (to maximise range). For this, you want the forward pivot point to be close to the tip. This gives you (a) excellent point control, and (b) shock-free cuts with the tip. (A longsword should be balanced the same way, and plenty of one-handed cut and thrust swords are balanced the same way.) The point of balance should be placed to put the pivot point where you want it. Move the POB in closer by having a heavier pommel, and the pivot point moves outwards. For a jian, to have the POB at 2" will often put the pivot point way off the blade. Not good balance. The POB on the Hanwei Cutting jian is about 6" past my first knuckle when holding the sword (so maybe equivalent to about 5" POB on a Medieval European sword); it's not as close to the grip as 3.5" might suggest. Note that for a given blade, if you put on a heavier pommel to move the POB in, the sword becomes easier to hold (statically), but becomes harder to swing. How easy/hard it is to swing depends on the moment of inertia, and adding weight to the pommel increases it. But comparing different swords with similar pommels, one with POB further out will probably have more mass further out on the blade (maybe the blade is thicker closer to the tip). So swords with POB far out are often sluggish. (If it has a light blade and a light pommel or not pommel, it can be a light agile sword with the POB a long way out.) A bad sword with POB far out on the blade will be sluggish (but it's likely to be sluggish even with a POB closer in, because that would be achieved by a really heavy pommel). Basically, POB, by itself, matters a lot for holding the sword stationary, but doesn't really directly affect the handling. That depends on the moment of inertia and the locations of the pivot points. For a jian specifically, if you want a historically-realistic sword, you want the POB to be about 1/3 of the distance from the pommel to the tip (or maybe a bit further). I think having a historically accurate sword (at least as far as handling goes) is important when doing historical martial arts. I noted the POB and its closeness because there are widespread misconceptions about jian, such as they should balance right on the guard or in really close. Past discussion: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/34241/sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/41715/The forward pivot point is also called the centre of percussion in science, engineering, sport science - pretty much everywhere outside swords. It has nothing to do with nodes of vibration. For swords, "centre of percussion" has come to usually mean "node of vibration", due, I think, to vague late 19th/early 20th century writing about swords. For a fairly comprehensive article, see www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htm and, for a discussion, www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8088Thanks for the detailed response. I see what you're saying about handling, but need to play with a couple of different swords and explore the idea to really understand it. |
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