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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 24, 2015 13:36:45 GMT
So, I recently bought the 5th book in the Brotherband Chronicles, companion series to the Ranger's Apprentice series, both by John Flanagan; as is my wont, I re-read the series up to that point to refresh my memory of the details and, while re-reading the first book, The Outcasts, a question popped into my head. During an early training scene, the protagonist, Hal Mikkelson, is fitted with a sword and a massive round shield (strapped to the arm rather than center gripped), but they're far too heavy for him, as the sword is a crudely forged trainer and the shield is meant for someone of larger stature than him. Together, they make him sluggish and tire him out quite quickly, both a recipe for disaster in any kind of fight, so his mentor takes it upon himself to equip him with a sword and shield more fitted to his build, the latter of which is a lighter heater shaped shield.
For whatever reason, when I read that, I began to wonder if there was any advantage to the heater over an arm mounted round shield or vice versa. In history, when it comes to weapons and armor, which can make the difference between life or death, anything that didn't work was quickly abandoned; obviously, both heater and round shields worked, because they stuck around for a long time. If we assumed roughly similar dimensions, materials, and construction, would either design have any noticeable advantage over the other? For the purpose of the question, assume that the round shield is 24" in diameter, made of 1/2" thick plywood, out of, say, pine, while the dimensions of the heater would be 22" x 24", with the same thickness, composition, and construction.
Would the heater be significantly lighter? Would the round shield offer a smidge more protection? Or, as I suspect, would the differences between the two be so minute as to render the question academic?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 24, 2015 22:35:39 GMT
At about 24", I think it's a matter of fashion, if on foot. If mounted, the shape probably matters for comfortable and easy carry (for that size and up; if the shield is smaller, then I don't think it matters).
Points on a heater allow an opponent to try to twist your shield around with a long weapon, and a heater is easier to hook. A heater blocks your vision a little less.
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Luka
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,848
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Post by Luka on Jan 25, 2015 1:09:19 GMT
24" is small for a roundshield. If I had to use a 24" wide shield I would use a 24 wide but at least 30" long heater. If my shield was round, I would be far more comfortable with at least 30" roundshield.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 25, 2015 2:31:08 GMT
It's at the large end for forearm-strapped dhals and Scottish targes (and the centre-gripped versions are smaller). About standard size for Renaissance rotella. (And normal for round riot shields, which I think are more melee-oriented and less for missile defense than the big rectangular riot shields.)
Don't know of any forearm-strapped round shields of about 30" (Greek hoplite shields were much bigger than that); that's a common size for large centre-gripped round shields (Dark Ages, Viking). Perhaps this is a bad size for protection vs bulk and visibility for forearm-strapped? I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case - I find a 24" round shield is good against melee weapons, and I never felt I wanted a bigger one. (Missile weapons might make me want a bigger shield.)
Throat to groin looks common for length of heaters, with a few bigger and lots of really small ones. 24" by 30" heater might be pretty normal. Which suggests one reason for the heater is to have more shield without more width.
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Luka
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Posts: 2,848
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Post by Luka on Jan 25, 2015 15:28:18 GMT
It's at the large end for forearm-strapped dhals and Scottish targes (and the centre-gripped versions are smaller). About standard size for Renaissance rotella. (And normal for round riot shields, which I think are more melee-oriented and less for missile defense than the big rectangular riot shields.) Don't know of any forearm-strapped round shields of about 30" (Greek hoplite shields were much bigger than that); that's a common size for large centre-gripped round shields (Dark Ages, Viking). Perhaps this is a bad size for protection vs bulk and visibility for forearm-strapped? I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case - I find a 24" round shield is good against melee weapons, and I never felt I wanted a bigger one. (Missile weapons might make me want a bigger shield.) Throat to groin looks common for length of heaters, with a few bigger and lots of really small ones. 24" by 30" heater might be pretty normal. Which suggests one reason for the heater is to have more shield without more width. True, I was thinking about center gripped round shield. Rennaisance strapped round shields were smaller.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jan 25, 2015 22:01:47 GMT
I know far more about this than I like to admit. The reality is...it depends. IMO for equivalent protection, you'd need a larger round than a heater if we're talking arm strapped. The styles would be very differnt as well. Anyhow, it also depends on what you're fighting and the styles used. But in general, the heater works well with heavier armors, and in later styles you see more rounds with lighter armor, but then the styles were dramatically different. So in summation, in this case, you'd at best be arguing what's a better food...apples or fish? Though if you wanted to be scenario specific to styles and armor, just look at historical references for guidance on what worked better, because there's a reason they did things *that* way...we may not know why...but there was.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 26, 2015 0:44:20 GMT
"Larger" isn't the same as "better protection". Against arrows, size helps a lot. Whenever you are using the shield relatively passively, size helps. But if you have room to use the shield actively, size can mean less protection. Shields interfere with your vision, and your own movement. That's bad. A small shield does so much less. One-on-one (or in a fairly open formation in battle), small shields can be better. There's a reason we see so many approx. 12" bucklers.
For forearm-strapped shields, I don't think there's much benefit, and indeed some danger, in making it shorter than your forearm (elbow to knuckles) plus a little extra on each end. Which makes the smallest forearm-strapped shield about 20"-24" (or maybe as small as 18" for the short-armed). And we see plenty of forearm-strapped shields of this size (late Medieval, Renaissance, and later).
The small shields are there when (a) armour is more common, and/or (b) bows are less common. In both cases, the shield is not being depended on as the primary defence against arrows.
(I did find some c. 30" forearm-strapped shields: the Chinese teng pai, or rattan shield.)
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jan 26, 2015 17:10:02 GMT
Nods. This goes back to the 'it depends' portion of my thought. I do know in SCA fighting (which is really goofy and a-historical) that when I used a 24" round, I had to be very active with it, much like using a buckler in energy expenditure to guard myself during fights. When I kicked it up to a 32" round, the weight was prohibitive and it actually got in the way...lots. I like Heaters for lower energy defense, but it still depends what and who you're fighting. The real answer? Drop a nuke from space, its the only way to be sure.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jan 28, 2015 21:56:47 GMT
LOL...my 2nd 24" round was made from 1" marine plywood with a steel rim, I think it weighed about 18lbs...was great to train with, but was awful to train with...
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 13, 2015 23:17:10 GMT
It's tough to say how any of these were used and therefore difficult to know what the advantages and disadvantages are. As far as I know, no training manuals survive with much detail prior to I.33. The center-grip shields seem to have been used pretty actively, and at this point I'm persuaded that Roland's interpretation makes a heck of a lot of sense. Though it may be too close to buckler techniques he's worked on and contain anachronisms as a result. The weight is an issue as well. How heavy were the actual historical shields? Does anyone have a complete intact example to weigh? This was a major confusion re. medieval swords back when few people had bothered to actually figure out their true weight. So we got the pernicious Victorian myth of the huge, dull broadsword bashing into armor mindlessly. Could shields made for combat actually been far lighter than we have recreated them? As in no more than perhaps three or four pounds?
But OTOH you do see many illustrations of knights standing behind rather passively-held shields that seem to be pretty bulky. And both arm strap and center-grip shields appear to be used both actively and passively. I suspect there's just too much we don't know about how they were truly used. Form always seems to follow function, right down to the precise curve of a crossguard or the width of a blade. Everything they did seems to have had a martial reason. I'm thinking specifically of the Type XIV, which might have initially been seen as a decorative short sword but turns out to have been made precisely for certain types of combat right down to specific overbinds and counterstrikes.
Personally, from all that I've been learning of early longsword and s&b, I think any system designed around purely passive defenses was doomed from the start and never would have caught on. All these arts focus on the offensive. Taking the vor and keeping it. Killing the other guy before he kills you. None of them have any regard for standing behind something blocking up or down. And that kind of reactive, passive defense is almost suicidal given the tools of the day. So I don't put much credence in the notion that shields would have been simply used for passive blocking. Blocking gets your attention on the blade and that always gets you killed. Well it gets ME killed anyway! You have to focus on the other guy and have plans to end him as quickly as possible. Which is a roundabout way of saying I don't think the strength of any shield design came from covering more territory where blows could come in from. I think its strength would be in controlling the critical center in order to stab or cut the other guy without getting stabbed or cut, as it is in every known blade combat system right up through the 19th century. And I think the shields would have had to protect the hand of the swordsman in the process. In light of that, I can see advantages to either a round center-grip design used in Roland's method or a kite shaped arm-wrapped design used offensively to shield strike and pin the enemy's blade back. I'm imagining a 12th century knight keeping a close guard as he approaches, then exploding out with a combination of overbind, shield strike with the edge of his kite aimed right at the center of his foe's chest, slight sidestep as he presses in and delivers a killing blow. Assuming his legs had protection against cuts, he would be able to afford to keep his shield closer to his torso in exchange for the added leverage of his double strapped forearm. I'd like to test this, but my bet is with a strapped-on kite design and the right footwork you could not only neutralize a foe with a strike to his center, you could spin him around or even drop him down on his face. It puts all of your torso strength directly into the shield--as opposed to a centergrip or buckler which relies on weaker shoulder muscles (as my left shoulder is now reminding me)
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 14, 2015 2:12:29 GMT
About 3 to 6lbs seems normal for combat shields (1.5-2.5kg). The Wallace collection shields are in line with this (but they're mostly parade shields). Indian and Persian shields also. Haven't seen enough weights for any other shields.
Some Persian round shield weights (diameter, weight, other comments):
65cm, 2840g, 16th century, elephant hide, centre gripped 61.5cm, 4500g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 35.8cm, 1550g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 42.5cm, 1720g, Safavid, hide, forearm strapped 52cm, 1850g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 50.5cm, 1580g, Safavid, rhino hide, centre gripped 48cm, 460g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 47.5cm, 1553g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 44.5cm, 1760g, Safavid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 39.5cm, 2270g, Safavid, steel, centre gripped 40cm, 1380g, Afsharid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 51cm, 1880g, Afsharid, buffalo hide, centre gripped 53cm, 2948g, Afsharid, rhino hide, forearm strapped 51cm, 3270g, Zand, rhino hide, forearm strapped 41.5cm, 1375g, Zand, hide, centre gripped 48cm, 2610g, Qajar, buffalo hide, forearm strapped 65cm, 2840g, Qajar, rhino hide, centre gripped 47cm, 2270g, Qajar, rhino hide, forearm strapped 67.5cm, 2620g, Qajar, rhino hide, forearm strapped 49cm, 2620g, Qajar, buffalo hide, centre gripped 47cm, 2500g, Qajar, steel, centre gripped 39cm, 1960g, Qajar, steel, centre gripped 51.2cm, 2620g, Qajar, steel, centre gripped
Safavid = 1502 to 1796 Afsharid = 1737 to 1802 Zand = 1750 to 1794 Qajar = 1794 to 1925
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Feb 14, 2015 23:30:35 GMT
One thing I can confirm from the re-enactor community is they tend to have completely unrealistic expectations about shields and armor durability. My completely unscientific research has shown shields were lighter and cheaply expendable. So for Viking rounds, if it lasted a hit or three, it seems that was about expected (from saga resources). How much damage it could actually stop, is infinitely debatable.
So I still fall back to: what are you fighting against, and what is your body mechanic. From a practical point of view, considering all shields unbreakable, and everyone wearing the same armor, it really is about *your* body mechanic and what works for you.
Now if we're talking fantasy book, and *Miraculum* shields, well....
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on Jun 30, 2015 4:43:27 GMT
Having owned and used several shields I have the following opinions. If you are part of an immobile line, you want large and long (for leg protection). You can't effectively dance around as part of a line. If you are a solo, or forward engaging fighter, a smaller (say 24 inch) round or wankel (rounded semi-triangular) shield works well with a mobile style. Overall, if you are very offensive (and not part of a line), two weapons wielded gives the best survivability.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Jun 30, 2015 20:35:41 GMT
I do pretty well with a coffin-kite at 42"x24" at the greatest measurements in a forward, aggressive style. And equally well in a shield wall.
It all depends on your personal body mechanics and mentality. My fighting with sword and shield is based on my unarmed kung fu and my mentality is aggressive defense. IOW, I will shove my defense in your face and let you eat it while I beat the crap out of you.
Other people have different styles and mentalities and use the shields they find best suited to them. Or, just as often, the shields they can find people to teach them to use. It's a long, slow road, figuring out on your own how to use a shield. And it involves getting hit. A lot.
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Post by fulltang on Jul 17, 2015 7:36:26 GMT
I've fought with both...and broke both. Honestly it depends on style. I prefer to be very aggressive, so I made myself a nice semi-round shield out of a sheet of galvanized steel I had lying around in the basement, the cut out section in the top is to make spear offence a treat (just slot it in and stab stab stab from behind my wall of STEEL). Note: It's been punctured multiple times, as compared to my brothers nigh impenetrable but heavy wooden steel plated shield that he also made from scratch after we finally decided our last set of shields had become more hazardous to its user than the weapons they were meant to deflect, but boy is it light! I can dance around with it all day. Having it strapped to my arm helps SO MUCH, while having a handle grip allows me to shield bash with both the rounded boss I hammered into it, and with the rolled edge, providing excellent versatility in a full on, no holds barred sparring match where the shield HAS to be a weapon to get through my opponents defenses. In summary, I'm currently of the opinion that an arm strap and off center handle offers a distinct advantage in both energy efficiency and in offensive ability, so long as its light enough to wield effectively. But that lightness diminishes some of its defensive value...
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Post by willmccrum on Oct 13, 2020 11:10:25 GMT
No, the answer is simpler. A heater shield is a KNIGHTLY shield for horseback. That's all! The shield must be shorter than a kite (to allow movement from left to right over the horse's neck) and flat-topped to take a joust lance. It hangs by a guige strap around the neck to take the weight. The pointed bottom accommodates the horse's flank. Everything isn't just re-enactors banging each other y'know! The diagonal guige strap hung the shield under the arm and round the knight's neck.
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