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Post by justin520 on Jan 7, 2015 18:24:42 GMT
even if someone "brandished" or "swung" a sword at one point and later is being chased the threat of violence is no longer present and deadly force should not be used. Ok, this is an important aspect of this case to think about. As Josh said, if someone draws a realistic iaito, there's no way for the officer to tell it's not a functional katana. If a functional katana, like the ones many of us own, is swung at an officer and makes contact, you may very well have a dead officer. The officer's defense is that, after being assaulted with what they had to assume was a deadly weapon, the man then ran toward a shopping center, becoming a potential danger to other people. Let's say you draw a gun on an officer and shoot, but miss. Then you holster the gun and run toward a shopping center. Would that be different? Yes, but only because it's a projectile weapon. The threat of force against an officers life must display and imminent presence, a sword at 10 feet or greater distance is not. This is especially true when their back is turned. Though I would wonder, why are you so quick to assume the cops aren't lying. The autopsy report showed they lied about him being on drugs.
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Aikidoka
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Post by Aikidoka on Jan 7, 2015 18:31:32 GMT
I'm not assuming that either version of the story is true.
The defense put forth by the officers is that he posed a threat to the safety of the people at the shopping center:
With this defense, the detail of whether or not he swung the sword at the officers would seem to be the very important, but missing, part of the video evidence.
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Post by mindfulloffire on Jan 7, 2015 18:32:20 GMT
i think the word we need here is imminent. is the threat imminent if a person is running away? no. is a threat imminent if a gun is in a holster? no. is it imminent if a sword is in a sheath? no.
imminent threat i may be able to understand the fear and sense of urgency. but without it i cannot.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 7, 2015 18:32:49 GMT
I'm thinking this thread needs to be locked (and moated, if possible), because I can see this becoming highly inflammatory very quickly.
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Post by justin520 on Jan 7, 2015 18:33:06 GMT
But the problem with that is there are witnesses who contradict that.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Jan 7, 2015 18:34:13 GMT
Isn't this the second time cops kill someone with a sword in Utah?
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Post by justin520 on Jan 7, 2015 18:36:31 GMT
Isn't this the second time cops kill someone with a sword in Utah? Not sure if it was Utah, but I think I know of the case you're talking about.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 7, 2015 18:38:11 GMT
We don't know all the facts yet. If the sword was drawn, there would be a possibilty that someone could be hurt and also, 10 feet can be covered in seconds with a long blade. If the sword was not drawn but in hand, it wouldn't pose a direct and immediate threat but that could change very quickly as we all know. if it was not drawn and worn at the hip, lethal force shouldn't have been used until something changed.
If we want to keep discussing this we should try and keep it calm or you know this thread will get shut down quickly.
-Josh
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Aikidoka
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Post by Aikidoka on Jan 7, 2015 18:38:37 GMT
I'm thinking this thread needs to be locked (and moated, if possible), because I can see this becoming highly inflammatory very quickly. Why? This would seem to be an potentally important sword related issue to discuss. If it hasn't become inflammatory, why censor the discussion?
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jan 7, 2015 18:41:33 GMT
Not wanting to be political but I don't think we will be able to solve the case. I think United States court system will handle that.
If I got it correctly police got a report of a suspicious person carrying samurai sword in public? That sounds to me like a very dangerous situation.
We do not know what happened when police officers faced him. In all reality if you act normally you shouldn't have a reason to run away from police officers, even in USA I would assume? In my mind he obviously did something, most likely dangerous and was running away. If they would ask you to hand over the sword you will give it to them, right? I don't know how dangerous police officers are in the USA but here in Finland normal people do what police officers tell you to do.
I know laws in Finland are totally different to USA though.
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Aikidoka
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Post by Aikidoka on Jan 7, 2015 18:41:48 GMT
But the problem with that is there are witnesses who contradict that. I'm not trying to determine guilt here. The validity of the officers defense, in and of itself, is what I am addressing.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 7, 2015 18:48:27 GMT
I'm thinking this thread needs to be locked (and moated, if possible), because I can see this becoming highly inflammatory very quickly. Why? This would seem to be an potentally important sword related issue to discuss. If it hasn't become inflammatory, why censor the discussion? Sword related, yes, but this can also be construed as a racial issue, which can get out of hand every bit as fast as political and religious discussions, both of which are banned; that's why I'm thinking it may need to be locked. I leave it to the mods to decide when and if it needs to be locked, but until then, discuss away.
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Post by mindfulloffire on Jan 7, 2015 18:51:12 GMT
Not wanting to be political but I don't think we will be able to solve the case. I think United States court system will handle that. If I got it correctly police got a report of a suspicious person carrying samurai sword in public? That sounds to me like a very dangerous situation. We do not know what happened when police officers faced him. In all reality if you act normally you shouldn't have a reason to run away from police officers, even in USA I would assume? In my mind he obviously did something, most likely dangerous and was running away. If they would ask you to hand over the sword you will give it to them, right? I don't know how dangerous police officers are in the USA but here in Finland normal people do what police officers tell you to do. I know laws in Finland are totally different to USA though. in the USA any interaction w/ the police can turn deadly. if you run and they shoot you in the back at least people know the cops murdered you and you didn't attack them. edit: but actually the way things are going around here it seems that even if you get shot in the back they claim it was self defense.
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Aikidoka
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Post by Aikidoka on Jan 7, 2015 18:59:13 GMT
Why? This would seem to be an potentally important sword related issue to discuss. If it hasn't become inflammatory, why censor the discussion? Sword related, yes, but this can also be construed as a racial issue, which can get out of hand every bit as fast as political and religious discussions, both of which are banned; that's why I'm thinking it may need to be locked. I leave it to the mods to decide when and if it needs to be locked, but until then, discuss away. I am aware that is what you meant. But you are the first to mention it and I don't see why the conversation should be disallowed because you are concerned with were it might go. Is that not censorship in your opinion? A drawn sword can kill quickly. A sheathed sword, almost as quickly. People don't defend themselves with swords anymore and a lot of people use them for some form of recreation (martial arts, sports, backyard cutting...). So, some people view them almost as toys. That may be dangerous because the police certainly won't see them that way. This is the important sword-related aspect of this case that jumped out at me.
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Post by justin520 on Jan 7, 2015 19:01:20 GMT
Not wanting to be political but I don't think we will be able to solve the case. I think United States court system will handle that. If I got it correctly police got a report of a suspicious person carrying samurai sword in public? That sounds to me like a very dangerous situation. We do not know what happened when police officers faced him. In all reality if you act normally you shouldn't have a reason to run away from police officers, even in USA I would assume? In my mind he obviously did something, most likely dangerous and was running away. If they would ask you to hand over the sword you will give it to them, right? I don't know how dangerous police officers are in the USA but here in Finland normal people do what police officers tell you to do. I know laws in Finland are totally different to USA though. in the USA any interaction w/ the police can turn deadly. if you run and they shoot you in the back at least people know the cops murdered you and you didn't attack them. edit: but actually the way things are going around here it seems that even if you get shot in the back they claim it was self defense. The United Nations issues travel warnings to tourists coming to the United States to avoid police here because there's a good chance you'll die.
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Post by justin520 on Jan 7, 2015 19:03:02 GMT
But the problem with that is there are witnesses who contradict that. I'm not trying to determine guilt here. The validity of the officers defense, in and of itself, is what I am addressing. I think the validity is questionable at best given the separate justice system officers go through.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 7, 2015 19:03:04 GMT
The video surveilance I found doesn't show much
-Josh
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Post by William Swiger on Jan 7, 2015 19:06:32 GMT
This thread is getting anti-government as police are employed by federal, state, county and local governments.
Does not belong on a sword forum and complaints were received about this thread.
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