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Post by greatsaiyaman on Sept 9, 2015 3:57:49 GMT
We might end geting him a chunk of business or denying him a potential group of customers. Either way it will be a learning experience. I plan on doing a very in depth review with everything from measurements to build to handling from a martial arts perspective. I have a bare bones list of things to cover. If it's good make you sure let him know and to share your review with him. Hopefully that can encourage him to keep his products up to par and improve on them further in the future so we can all get better swords
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 9, 2015 4:10:39 GMT
If it's good make you sure let him know and to share your review with him. Hopefully that can encourage him to keep his products up to par and improve on them further in the future so we can all get better swords Will do. I hope that we will find a good source for swords.
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Post by danmasamori on Sept 9, 2015 4:17:13 GMT
Here I got caught up in the side discussion, I forgot to throw my two cents in on the actual seller. Having owned a couple of Ryanswords blades myself over the years, I will say they are probably not the "worst", but you can do way better for the price. Both were their "Shihozume" offerings. Blades were both fairly beefy, with moderate niku, I have no doubt they would cut well, but that's not saying much.
The kissaki on both were mis-shapen and ground on, in addition, the shinogi on one was mis-aligned and trailed off a bit near the machi. Polish was nothing worth mentioning, both pretty much obscured any activity that may or may not be present.
Tsuka on one was cracked, the wood was way too soft and thinly carved to be used for a tsuka, I have no doubt that had I actually used the sword with the intact tsuka, it would have failed. The samekawa on both was crap and was pieced together, habaki fit was bad on one, leaving the ha hanging out over the edge, which can cause the blade to crack up through the machi.
Saya is really the only highlight for both, well made and fit I ended up repurposing the saya on both to nicer swords, lol.
Granted, I hear they have made some changes, my purchases were around 4-5 years ago, so your experience may differ...
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Sept 9, 2015 4:30:39 GMT
DanMasamori, if that is a snapshot from 5 years ago, then it does look like their product has improved.
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 9, 2015 5:07:37 GMT
I find it weird that the thread got heated up because of, to my mind, non-existent negativity. But I do hope Holg will reconsider. He's a fun forumite on ANY thread except Ryanswords threads. Please Holg, consider your health and just don't click on Ryanswords threads. You are a fantastic chap whose passion for swords is contagious.
As for the discussion, it was all extremely helpful and helps put perspective into these Longquan sellers. Yes, RS isn't the worst, but you might want to take a moment to think before paying full price for most of their offers. Same thing with some other forges. Reviews exist for this very reason, so you don't purchase things blindly.
Of course if after reading up you'd still want to buy RS, the other forumites shouldn't be so judgmental. It's a fine line between being an @$$ and giving polite criticism. For instance, if I told you that the ito did not alternate properly and the tsuka did not have the ideal waisting, that would be factual and should be acceptable criticism. On the other hand, if I just said that the sword is bad because RS made it, or Ronin made it, or that it was simply ugly, I'm putting my subjective perspective and ramming it down your throat, which isn't very polite. So maybe there is a way to toe the line and be respectful, while not being dishonest. At the heart of it all is a healthy respect for the person on the other end, knowing that his opinion is driven by an equally valid passion/desire/love for swords.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Sept 9, 2015 10:17:56 GMT
I'll use the pics by Addertooth posted earlier in this thread to explain what I meant. In kantei you only look at the blade, you don't see anything else but the features of the blade. So tsukamaki, ArtsFeng fittings etc. wont matter. This is where the fun and horror begins. It is a very difficult task and it's very easy to be wrong. The last time I had a chance to try out kantei on 6 swords, I got 2 quite close calls (correct period & school), I somewhat recognized 2 (correct period), and I was way off on 2 (even wrong period). Kantei is great learning tool when dealing with real Japanese swords, when experienced collectors explain you the features and the swords afterwards you will learn a lot. For those of us who have owned swords from multiple big makers over the years, noticing the differences between Hanwei and Huanuo for example is somewhat easy. They both have their own unique flavor. That's how it's possible to identify them. One group is Longquan forges, I think I can recognize a blade that is from Longquan but that is where it ends... The blades on these swords are all so similar I can't see any differences in them. They lack this uniqueness that I am speaking for, they are cookie cutter katana (wow I used that term for the first time but it's so fitting). To me all these blades look pretty much the same. I couldn't tell from which seller these 3 came from. Of course I could make pure guesses as there are only certain amount of known sellers. However that would be purely based on luck. Now I'm not claiming Longquan swords are bad swords, no they are often excellent deals for the money you put in. What I'm trying to say is that they lack the identifying factor. For example I have a full custom sword made to my specs (with available options they had at time) which I ordered through YarinoHanzo. Most US folks have probably never heard about this brand, but I've always though they use Zhengs. I have a full custom, made to specs... but in the end it's almost a cookie cutter katana... It lacks the identifying factor. Sure it's not the same damn specs that 99% of Longquan katana have but it still could have been made by any Longquan forge and look exactly the same. I'm trying to explain this as best I can and I don't think I can explain my view clearer than this above post. Heck some forge could make a wonky yakidashi to their hamon, could be cool and everyone would know the maker. Don't know how long it would be before others started copying it though.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 9, 2015 12:41:15 GMT
I understand completely Jussi. You can't look at the blade, see that it has a specific style of hamon making, a specific style of geometry, folding, etc, and say "this is a sheng sword." The differences are mostly in the fit and finish since all of these guys are looking to make what someone will pay for and not follow a specific school or style of making it. They'll take on just about anything given the right price. They'll try to use whatever forging techniques they think will move. So I see what you mean. Most of us here are nitpicking who offers what at what price a picking who has the best quality through that.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Sept 9, 2015 13:40:40 GMT
I must admit examining the blade-only and determining the seller can be difficult. Part of the challenge is the variation of blade details within the same vendor. Two blades from the same vendor may not have the same "tells". With the classic Japanese schools, commonalities are more consistent. Additionally, the hada isn't much help, as many of the Longquan facilities don't actually fold their billet; it is pre-manufactured elsewhere. This does not leave many major features to tell the sellers apart. There are certain sellers which consistently seem to only produced cosmetic yokote, which others seem to consistently make geometric yokote. There are somewhat inconsistent details on hamon, for example: two Ryanswords exhibited a gunome-like hamon which the valleys of the line slant towards the tip. But I have seen other pictures of Ryans which do not exhibit this slant. Gunome Midare and Gunome Togare are pretty common among many Longquan sellers. For me, overall fit, finish and choice of some fittings are some of the more consistent factors, but are far from absolute. In the end, I find myself agreeing with Jussi, from just the blade they are hard to tell apart.
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 9, 2015 14:29:55 GMT
Wait, just to be clear, hasn't it been previously established that Longquan sellers are basically assembly houses, and that they buy locally from forges who don't really sell their own products internationally? So it would make sense to me that in terms of the blade, at least, you couldn't really differentiate them (except perhaps Huawei's high end swords). I mean, I see a unokubi zukuri from St Nihonto, and apart from the fittings, I can't tell it apart from an unokubi zukuri from Huawei, or from Hanbon.
I do think that you can differentiate them based on polishing though, and often enough, the fittings.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Sept 9, 2015 14:40:30 GMT
I don't have a specific number for how many forges there are in Longquan, but there are several. Many of the resellers may buy from more than one of the forges. There is a lot of cross-pollination between the forges (the Chinese have mastered the art of borrowing ideas and techniques from others). So many of the sellers hint they have their own forge, but for most of them this may not be the case. However, they do have the choice of grade/type of blades they purchase. All of this adds to a more homogenous feel of Longquan swords.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 9, 2015 15:39:26 GMT
Obviously, I haven't been to China and inspected their forges, but I would think that certain Longquan based sellers DO have their own forges, or at least direct access to a forge nearby. www.ebay.com/itm/181745125970?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITAfter all, some Chinese eBay sellers Do offer completely customizable katana, and not just in their fittings - take mine, for instance. Sheng and I worked out a custom blade from top to bottom, with things like steel type, sori degree, koshi zori, hamon type, blade polish, and more. If they were merely ordering random blades from a factory, I HIGHLY doubt that they would have had my EXACT katana lade just lying around. ST-Nihonto, at least, must have a forge of their own, or at least access and even control of a nearby forge that they buy from.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 9, 2015 16:37:33 GMT
Obviously, I haven't been to China and inspected their forges, but I would think that certain Longquan based sellers DO have their own forges, or at least direct access to a forge nearby. www.ebay.com/itm/181745125970?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITAfter all, some Chinese eBay sellers Do offer completely customizable katana, and not just in their fittings - take mine, for instance. Sheng and I worked out a custom blade from top to bottom, with things like steel type, sori degree, koshi zori, hamon type, blade polish, and more. If they were merely ordering random blades from a factory, I HIGHLY doubt that they would have had my EXACT katana lade just lying around. ST-Nihonto, at least, must have a forge of their own, or at least access and even control of a nearby forge that they buy from. Shinken katana is sheng from what I've heard. Considering his picture updates he has sent me are normally taken in the forge itself (ie, laying next to a polishing stone when says that the sword is going to be polished soon) I'd say it's safe to assume he either has his own or goes to the forge often.
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Post by nihontocaster on Sept 9, 2015 17:24:05 GMT
I guess Longquan forges just tend to be very similar in many ways in the style they produce swords, which might make it look as if many swords come from the same forge/outlet. Not that surprising, antique Nihonto from Bizen look more similar to other antiques from Bizen too than they share similarities with the ones from other provinces. Though you still can spot some typical things with some forges/sellers...The high rising hamon on Huawei stuff for example. Or their more complicated Choji hamon variants (at least I haven't seen them around with other Chinese forges so far.) Also a bit of a different sori, the handle having a curvature in contrast to ZhenForge ones or classic Hanwei. St-Nihonto (and the 10 other names Sheng sells from) often have some kind of typical polish I think I could spot, not sure how to describe it. Not sure if I like it too, but I think I could tell them apart from Hanbon or Ryan-Sword. ZhenForge stuff often has a low sori, very flat hamon (meaning not going far up high), very beefy geometry.
With Hanbon and Ryan-Sword, also Sinosword, no clue. There I have to agree, they look all the same to me (maybe with the exception of the reverse-Kobuse Hanbon ones).
Of course if we go for no-hamon 9260 blades, they finally all look nearly the same outside of geometry. Would be very hard to tell apart anything then.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 9, 2015 17:26:56 GMT
Obviously, I haven't been to China and inspected their forges, but I would think that certain Longquan based sellers DO have their own forges, or at least direct access to a forge nearby. www.ebay.com/itm/181745125970?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITAfter all, some Chinese eBay sellers Do offer completely customizable katana, and not just in their fittings - take mine, for instance. Sheng and I worked out a custom blade from top to bottom, with things like steel type, sori degree, koshi zori, hamon type, blade polish, and more. If they were merely ordering random blades from a factory, I HIGHLY doubt that they would have had my EXACT katana lade just lying around. ST-Nihonto, at least, must have a forge of their own, or at least access and even control of a nearby forge that they buy from. Shinken katana is sheng from what I've heard. Considering his picture updates he has sent me are normally taken in the forge itself (ie, laying next to a polishing stone when says that the sword is going to be polished soon) I'd say it's safe to assume he either has his own or goes to the forge often. Agreed, Sheng has five different ebay accounts, I believe, so I know they're all his. I just think that he has a forge of his own (most likely), or has direct control over a nearby forge to make very specific custom orders.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 9, 2015 17:34:12 GMT
If I had to guess I'd agree. I normally get images from in the forge instead of the ones that you posted with a colored background.
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Post by svante on Sept 9, 2015 18:49:46 GMT
What are the experts opinion on Ronin Dojo Pro's and how do they compare to others (including Ryan).
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 9, 2015 19:01:44 GMT
I'm not an expert but I think they are good cutters. I don't like them for my martial art but as far as construction, the only complaint I really have is the tsuka. I won't get one in the foreseeable future. I think they are good if you do what they are good at doing.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 9, 2015 19:34:22 GMT
The ito wrap is usually a bit more lose than I'd like, but overall they're good for their price - cosmetic kissaki is quite ugly, but otherwise a decent blade. (I nicked the kissaki on my wooden stand, but I mostly polished it out.)
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Post by greatsaiyaman on Sept 9, 2015 20:04:59 GMT
I think you are wrong. Swords can be identified that are fully handmade from forge to forge. Longquan hss a sword museum specifically identifing each sword made by each smith.
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Post by zabazagobo on Sept 9, 2015 20:25:58 GMT
Completely agree, especially with the bit about knowledge. If you're wise, you're not. How's the write up coming along by the way? (Dang it, that probably counts as derailing this thread again) According to the sellers, all the redemption (replacement) blades are incoming. After they arrive, the full reviews will be written on each seller individually. Then a composite comparison article which leverages the individual reviews will be written, with the blades side by side. Although some favorites have already established themselves, I am willing to wait until the replacements arrive before final opinions are formed. That's nice of them to send you a replacement. Here's to hoping round two fares better. Looking forward to seeing the final verdict. Thanks again for putting in the time and money for this project.
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