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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 7, 2015 22:17:17 GMT
I personally like the Hanbon one best, it just seems the smoothest and the cleanest. Here's a couple of Sheng-sent pics of my L6 hazuya polished blade, if you want them for comparison:
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Sept 7, 2015 22:31:01 GMT
Messenger, I like the way it looks. My only wish would be the tip had been polished at 90 degrees to the main blade, so the beautiful tip contrast could be seen.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 7, 2015 22:31:32 GMT
What I really like is that all of the polishing scratches run parallel to the lines. Shows that they didn't run a buffer over it to smooth it out. It also adds a nice aesthetic to the sword.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 7, 2015 22:32:02 GMT
Messenger, I like the way it looks. My only wish would be the tip had been polished at 90 degrees to the main blade, so the beautiful tip contrast could be seen. I requested this on mine. We'll see how well it turns out.
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Post by greatsaiyaman on Sept 8, 2015 0:20:23 GMT
I'll just chime in and say these supposed fingerstone polishes are definitely not. China has large circular shaped waterstones that they use over a large bucket of water. The finish of these is some kind of uchigumori stone that then run the blade up and down resulting in the shiny hamon and cloudy Ji. This is similar to the uchigumori stage Japanese togishi do before the fingerstone finish. The Japanese finish with hazuya to the hamon then jizuya next. I haven't seen any forges from China being able to do this, except maybe Kaneie but there Ji and Ha surface is far mirror reflective to suggest a full fingerstone polish, so I suspect they acid etch them first then just go over the hamon with some slurry and hazuya to give the appearance of a full polish (it isn't). The amount of hours it takes to get a uniform hamon and ji with fingerstones plus the difficulty involved is NOT what this hazuya finish is. It's simply a large uchigumori stone they use to run to blade parallel across to give a hazy Ji. As far as what Ryan-swords are messing around with on there polishing methods. Just...yuck.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 8, 2015 0:29:31 GMT
I'll just chime in and say these supposed fingerstone polishes are definitely not. China has large circular shaped waterstones that they use over a large bucket of water. The finish of these is some kind of uchigumori stone that then run the blade up and down resulting in the shiny hamon and cloudy Ji. This is similar to the uchigumori stage Japanese togishi do before the fingerstone finish. The Japanese finish with hazuya to the hamon then jizuya next. I haven't seen any forges from China being able to do this, except maybe Kaneie but there Ji and Ha surface is far mirror reflective to suggest a full fingerstone polish, so I suspect they acid etch them first then just go over the hamon with some slurry and hazuya to give the appearance of a full polish (it isn't). The amount of hours it takes to get a uniform hamon and ji with fingerstones plus the difficulty involved is NOT what this hazuya finish is. It's simply a large uchigumori stone they use to run to blade parallel across to give a hazy Ji. As far as what Ryan-swords are messing around with on there polishing methods. Just...yuck. I believe that's what's shown in here, right? (Got to 11:12)
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Post by greatsaiyaman on Sept 8, 2015 1:53:14 GMT
That's just one factory with quite alot of workers there. Other forges there might only be half a dozen working outside of a busy industrial factory. More time consuming but more attention is paid to detail. I only see one stone these guys are using as well. Most probably the high grit ones used for the typical mirror polish. Edit- Sorry, it gets worse. They are using a belt sander and running water to keep the blade cool on other sword.Most probably the cheapest and rushed way of polishing a swords. Hey, it will be shiny though right
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 8, 2015 2:04:30 GMT
That's just one factory with quite alot of workers there. Other forges there might only be half a dozen working outside of a busy industrial factory. More time consuming but more attention is paid to detail. I only see one stone these guys are using as well. Most probably the high grit ones used for the typical mirror polish. Edit- Sorry, it gets worse. They are using a belt sander and running water to keep the blade cool on other sword.Most probably the cheapest and rushed way of polishing a sword. Hey, it will be shiny though right ;) From what Paul stated, only the cheaper ones were using a belt sander for the initial shaping. According to him, the more expensive blades there were all handmade and hand polished. At least, that's what he said in the video, but I can't confirm this myself. (In the video, he shows us the construction of three different types of Chinese blades; the walhanger swords with patented rat-tail tang, the second, low cost blades with machined polish and average fittings, and finally, the higher-end blades what are entirely done by well trained smiths.) I was just asking if the circular whetstone they were using in thr last part was the same one you were talking about.
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Post by greatsaiyaman on Sept 8, 2015 2:12:13 GMT
Yeah, those stones tend to be the most common ones for hand polishing. Though I doubt that only cheap swords are polished using a sander, otherwise how are china still sending out all there swords with a machine grind bevel? If higher end Chinese katanas were only polished by waterstones, then the blades bevel would be completely flush all the way to the edge. That's why the japanese use 6 progressive different waterstones polishing at different angles and directions to create the single bevel. You can't do that with just one or two waterstones by hand. Or maybe you could, it would just look ugly as fudge.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 8, 2015 2:37:31 GMT
There was one person who did something with a bugei. I wish I could remember what it was but it showed the heat difference in areas of the steel and they were done with belt sanders as well. Take that and all things that come without sources with a grain of salt. I think I saw it on sword forum but have since looked and can't find it again. Then again, bugei swords are from hanwei who is known to use nontraditional means on everything.
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Post by greatsaiyaman on Sept 8, 2015 2:58:59 GMT
He most probably took it back to foundation polish and differences in heat treatment will show up when polishing the blade starting at lower grit, as well as high or low spots or ripples in the blades surface and any beveling done by machine to give the edge. I believe all katanas outside of nihonto need extra work anyway whether production or custom in my experience. It's alot of time and effort to put into one sword to get done properly.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 8, 2015 3:01:48 GMT
Of course. I don't expect quality like nihonto when I'm paying 1/10th of the price. I think it is a good deal that we get more than 1/10th of the quality. Quality and amount of money doesn't seem to scale linearly.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 8, 2015 4:03:13 GMT
This, coupled with the durability of modern steels means that they'd actually be fairly comparable to a Nihonto in terms of blade durability - but anyways, to the best of my knowledge-
(Which isn't very much, so I basically don't know what I'm talking about. Therefore, take this as an opinion and not as fact, unless you're stupid - in which case it doesn't really matter; I could tell you to eat the laptop you're reading his on and it still wouldn't matter, right?)
-the use of power tools, while not at all traditional for historic Nihonto, isn't exactly blasphemy in the realm of production katana, assuming they're used correctly. The main issue with making swords using power tools is running the risk of heat exposure, usually from machine-generated friction, which can soften the steel and ruin a heat treatment.
However, the use of water and other buffering agents can counteract this, so power tools, while not available to the ancient Japanese, aren't necessarily a sign of cheapness. After all, you can find videos of expensive and traditional katana forged under a power hammer, which is a power tool, technically. (AND, when the Japanese were introduced to European technology, I believe that the Japanese started using European and Spanish steel for their weapons, as it was of much higher quality than the tamahagane that was traditionally used.)
And I myself care little for HOW it was exactly made (assuming that nothing in the creation process was majorly flawed or caused something dangerous for the blade's integrity in any way), I care about the END RESULT.
Would others agree with me? Some would say yes, some would say no, and any serious practitioner would likely think I'm an idiot - now, I may be an idiot anyways, and I'm fine with that. But, I'd rather be an idiot with a katana. ^_^
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 8, 2015 4:13:28 GMT
I'm reading this on the middle monitor on my gaming rig. That aside, the problem I have with belt sanders is that they often overdo it, resulting in the heat treatment being flawed since parts of the steel are actually reheated enough that it anneals again (probably used that wrong...). This can be invisible to the naked eye but I did see they guy do that thing with his blade that showed the steel had different harnesses at different spots because of the belt sander. I really need to find that forum post...
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 8, 2015 4:20:48 GMT
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 8, 2015 4:23:30 GMT
I don't think I'd even take that for free unless it meant I got to destroy it with testing... even then I'd have to stop and think.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 8, 2015 4:24:50 GMT
WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?!?!?! I can't tell if I should laugh uncontrollably or feel sick... 0_o
I feel like I should be the one paid to own that monstrosity...
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Sept 8, 2015 4:31:11 GMT
Can't believe how long this bashing of Ryan swords has been going on now.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 8, 2015 4:33:54 GMT
I'm not bashing, I DO think they've gotten better over the years, I'm just saying that they're not for me - and some of their higher-end "tamahagane" blades seem VERY overpriced.
Maybe one of these days I'll buy a Ryansword myself and but it through its paces, but not today, at least. I'm also waiting on another person's review of their new Ryansword before I form any real opinion of them, as I've yet to own or hold one of them before.
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Post by greatsaiyaman on Sept 8, 2015 5:12:47 GMT
"the use of power tools, while not at all traditional for historic Nihonto, isn't exactly blasphemy in the realm of production katana, assuming they're used correctly."
The thing is when using a belt sander to create an edge is that it ruins the blade geometry on a katana, which is why you should sharpen and polish one at the same time. It is a quick and easy way of doing things and is inferior to tried and true ways of doing it all by hand with no machinegrind. To save time and effort by using a belt sander, I have to disagree and say it is a cheaper way of doing it.
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