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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jan 4, 2015 20:11:37 GMT
I think that 600£'s sounds like a reasonable asking price. The thing you must decide is if it's worth of that to you.  I think the tang has been slightly shortened. Even though the sword is signed it's best to assume that the signature is not legitimate. From those pics I can't say anything certain but even if it's a false signature it does not matter much at this price range. Then again it could be a genuine signature of one of generations of this smith. |
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Post by lethalcurves on Jan 4, 2015 20:31:18 GMT
Hahaaa to be honest the menuki looks like shredder from teenage mutant ninja turtles.
Well when you say is it worth that too me?
What matters will it be a money pit regarding restoring it?
Wrap is no issue as it will be replaced regardless , it is either this or modern at the moment .
Just depends on the look of it in the flesh.
Also regarding the signature is has been verified by a respected expert here in UK but dont know if that means anything.
And i do believe there are polishers here in the UK.
And i know £600.00 is not a huge amount of money but what i dont want is to buy it and then it is a complete fake as i mayaswell just buy new.
Looks very blunt too me.
Is it possible to sharpen swords yourself to a good enough standard?
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 4, 2015 20:38:11 GMT
When dealing with antiques, any level of restoration is best left to a professional, as any amateur attempts are just as likely to ruin anything that could have been saved.
I wouldn't be surprised if the edge has gone, my naoshi wak is "fairly sharp" still but in very faded polish. I have another wak that's "kind of sharp" but in really bad, amateur polish. It'll cost me in the hundreds, upwards of thousands, to have either polished. Is that worth it? To me, of course it is. To you? Well, that's your call.
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Post by lethalcurves on Jan 4, 2015 20:46:51 GMT
Well regarding is it worth it too me yes? I would have to save the money but yes.
But my problem is and it is a big problem the legitimacy of the sword itself , as im no expert and it is from a private seller.
But i dont know how i would tell it is fake as i have never held a antique katana in my hands before.
I think if it is genuine and there are no cracks or chips then it is worth it.
But it could be the lighting but the blade looks glossy like stainless steel , also the short tang looks too me like a wakizashi tang
that or the tsuka is from a longer tang sword and the fuchi kashira set dont seem to match and the kashira looks to have no hole for shitodome
Or for the ito to run through.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 4, 2015 21:04:51 GMT
Come to think of it, do we know how long the nagasa is on this thing? I don't recall having read it...but maybe that's just my memory failing. There were katana-length swords made with very short nakago, in full-length tsuka. It's not unheard of. This blade, to me, certainly looks like a legitimate antique, but that's mostly judging by the nakago alone as the pictures of the blade itself show very little. On which note, mind you, a poorly-polished nihonto looks no significantly different than a mediocre stainless steel blade. Furniture can be broken or lost over time, too. Here's my two:  |
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Post by lethalcurves on Jan 4, 2015 21:21:24 GMT
Yeah he did mention it but i forget it now think he said 84cm
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 4, 2015 21:29:30 GMT
84cm? I sure hope that's overall, as that's over 33 inches. If overall, then yes, it's a wakizashi. Looks long for a wak, though; if I had to guess by proportions in the photos, I'd say at least a 24" nagasa.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jan 4, 2015 21:39:20 GMT
I think restoring it will end up being quite expensive. Usually I would recommend buying something in slightly better shape so that restoration is not needed to see and enjoy the details. John Bolton is a polisher in Liverpool area as far as I know. The Northern Token Society will know his contact info (as I don't know) you can ask a polishing quote from him. The sword in question is a genuine antique sword (at least I would say so), and it bears a signature. I'm just questioning the signature that is on it, it's safer to think this signature not being genuine by the famous smiths using this signature (maybe good for some generations). If it by chance happens to be genuine by famous ones, then it's well worth of the restoration in my opinion. If the signature is no good, then the restoration costs will not be cost effective. Here you can see few Nobutaka swords: www.nihonto.ca/nobutaka/www.ricecracker.com/japanese_swords/wakizashi/Past%20Wakizashis/sw9_2007-07-09.htmlworld.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/1008/5_nobutaka.htm |
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Post by lethalcurves on Jan 4, 2015 21:41:43 GMT
How would you know the signature is genuine though? Any tell tale marks?
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Post by lethalcurves on Jan 4, 2015 21:54:36 GMT
No im sure he said it was 84cm from tip to top of the tsuba i have emailed him again anyway.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 4, 2015 21:59:12 GMT
I can't fully answer for Jussi, but I think it comes down to how well it matches other confirmed examples, backed up by whether the features of the blade itself match to what is known of the smith's other works. Pretty much in the vein of if I painted a picture and signed it Ross, would you say it looked like Bob Ross' signature? I can probably fake that pretty well if I tried... But could you say that my painting was made in the same method, with the same tools, in the same place, and the same time period as Bob Ross?
I deliberately use a fairly modern example of a fellow renowned for a simple method because it would be the easiest to counterfeit. Others have tried to imitate older, more famous artists, some with success, but only for so long. What it comes down to is whether there are enough people who have studied enough of the artist's work to pick out things that just don't match and call it counterfeit.
In the case of antique swords, what may have a fake signature is still most likely a genuine antique sword. There are other features that should alert one to fake antiques before the signature is ever seen, and these are the same things that can be used to determine whether a signature is valid.
I wish I had the time and dedication to study up for kantei, but I'll leave that to others.
Edit: there is no way that blade is over 30 inches long. I'll wait to be Leuven wrong, though.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jan 4, 2015 22:05:13 GMT
That is where it gets very tricky and well beyond my skill level. Sometimes it's even possible to notice these minor details even at my level but I need to have a lot of references beside me. That's the field where experts can shine. Here are some references for 1st generation Nobutaka.  Unfortunately I am not at all familiar with this particular smith so I cannot say anything definitive even though I would look the signatures closely. And as my references mostly include only 1st and 2nd generation tangs, I could not confirm other generations. Some smiths had variances in their signature too. Trying to look some telltale signs in the signature of a smith is difficult and that is where the books help. You need to try to look how the characters are formed and how well they are made etc. That is why NBTHK, NTHK and papers by other organisations too add so much value as they guarantee the genuinity. As they are the authorities people count on. |
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Post by lethalcurves on Jan 6, 2015 1:17:03 GMT
So i guess signature is not my main concern now , it i blade condition.
I will need to look for cracks in the metal ,well i have managed to get him down on price and am looking at this tomorrow so lets hope
It is better looking in the flesh.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 6, 2015 1:40:25 GMT
These things generally tend to be, photos are only so good at capturing things in steel and it takes a lot of skill and know-how to get anything out of it. Then again, it could turn out that while the photos look okay, the blade is actually riddled with tiny kizu and maybe even a hagire that didn't show in photos...one never knows.  |
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Post by lethalcurves on Jan 6, 2015 2:05:35 GMT
Yeah i suppose that is risk but i will no know until i see it in the flesh.
It is one of those things it could turn out to be great?
But i will never know until i see it , or it could just be a load of junk.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 6, 2015 2:13:39 GMT
Best bet is it's something average.  |
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Post by lethalcurves on Jan 6, 2015 3:45:27 GMT
Well that is all i can expect for £500.00 or i could get another Hanwei which are overpriced LOL!
Nah but seriously i will make a nice project i think , as i will get it polished here in UK instead of traditional Japanese polish which i
Cant afford anyways. And then slowly add nicer tsuba and fuchi kashira , and either try and shorten the tsuka core or just
Make a new one and re wrap it.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 6, 2015 4:02:21 GMT
Yeah, once you get a better look at it, in your own hands, you'll be able to decide better whether it's worth the effort and what you want to do with it. My naoshi, for instance, I bought with some pretty lackluster photos, but I liked the overall look, the sugata, the nagasa, the koshirae, so I took a chance. Once I got it in hand, I felt a lot better about it than I did looking at the seller's photos. Sure, I could have spent the same amount or a little more on something in better shape, but I really liked this one. I'll have it polished eventually, got another in line before it, and with any luck once I get my savings back in line David Hofhine will still be so gracious as to permit me to rejoin his queue. Otherwise, I might go with Chris Osborne... Either way, it'll cost, but that's okay, because I like what I have and want to see them in better form then they are right now. It'll be up to you to decide if this sword is something you like enough to invest in, and remember, I use the word invest but I don't mean it as an asset for future profit, but something that you will personally enjoy for the value it brings to you, not how much it could sell for versus what you spent to get it there. |
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