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Post by jonathanb on Dec 27, 2014 11:37:24 GMT
Greetings everyone :-) I would like to request your advice about a unique miao dao I have ordered. But first, please allow me to present myself and my miao dao project. My name is Jonathan Bluestein. I am a martial arts teacher, hailing from Israel, and the author of Research of Martial Arts (http://www.researchofmartialarts.com). I practice and teach Xing Yi Quan and Pigua Zhang. I am new to this lovely forum, and happy to be a member in this community. I have recently made an order from SinoSword for a very special Miao Dao. I have some Miao Dao I use for training, but wanted a much heavier one I could also use for strength training. Regular Miao Dao tend not to exceed 2kg in weight, which was light for me, as I am used to training with 3.5 meter long Chinese spears. Thus, I ordered a Miao Dao with the following specifications: Weight: 7 - 9 kg. The balancing point would be inevitably altered, but I accept this reality. Steel: 1095, folded, mirror polish. Not sharpened. Steel type is just in case I would sharpen it in the future. Total Length: 134.5cm Blade length: 96.5cm Handle Length: 38cm (these fit my height of 5'7 or 1.7m) Fittings: Horn (rather than brass). Scabbard shape: like that of a traditional Katana rather than the regular Dao / Miao Dao design. Handle shape and thickness: Same as regular Miao Dao. Blade thickness: about 1.5cm thicker than regular miao dao cause of the weight. Blade width: about 4.5cm more than normal. Guard: Classic 'Musashi design' (the hollow one, not the fishy one), with adjustments to blade thickness and width. It would be more oval in shape. Mr. Kane of SinoSword has been very nice and forthcoming in our long interaction and discussion so far. He noted a problem with the design. SinoSword's woods of choice for handle and scabbard are usually one of these four: Huali wood ('cheap Rosewood imitation'), Rosewood, Hackberry and Ebony. Originally I wanted to use Rosewood for both the scabbard and handle. For my miao dao practice there are no grips or coverings of any kind on the handle, and I wish the handle and scabbard to be made of the same wood. However, Mr. Kane noted that Rosewood is too hard, and because heat can cause the metal to expand a bit, in their experience a scabbard made of Rosewood can crack as a result. He suggested I use Hackberry instead, which he said they use for all katana scabbards. However, I have read on Hackberry online, and it seems to be highly perishable, with low resistance to weather and bugs. The other two default options are no good either. Their Huali wood is low quality, and Ebony is also too hard and may crack. I convinced Mr. Kane to try and look for other woods among local carpenters and wood retailers. This is a list of woods I have sent him which I thought may be suitable: Walnut (核桃) Aromatic Red Cedar (北美圆柏) Atlantic White Cedar (大西洋白雪松) Australian Red Cedar (红椿 / also called 澳大利亚红雪松) Cedar of Lebanon (黎巴嫩 雪松 also called 黎巴嫩 柏) Northern White Cedar (北美香柏) Western Red Cedar (北美乔柏) European Yew (歐洲紅豆杉) Pacific Yew (短叶红豆杉) Kauri (考里松) Kaya / Japanese Nutmeg-Yew (榧) Please advise me on whether these woods are good, and if you perhaps know of other decent woods which Mr. Kane can easily get his hands on in China. Thank you! Jonathan. P.S. I have written a very long and thorough article on the Miao Dao, arguably the only one of its kind in English at the moment. For those interested, link is below. The article also contains comparisons with Japanese and European swords. cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/2014/10/the-brilliance-of-chinese-longsword.html |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 28, 2014 1:01:08 GMT
All of those woods should be good. Various maples should be good too. Padauk (various Pterocarpus species) should be good and should be available (their rosewood might be Pterocarpus rather than true rosewood). True huali (which is a rosewood) should be good, but xinhuali is the cheap and inferior subsitute (in principle, should be OK, if they use good wood).
For your suggested woods, the difference between choosing good and bad wood will matter more than the type of wood.
All of the Ming changdao I've seen either had wrapped grips, or grips in too poor condition to tell; usually wrapped in Ming artwork too. I haven't seen a wrapped hilt on a Qing changdao. (At least one of the Qing might have been a cut down polearm - the grip looked cylindrical.) Is this a real difference, or just due to not seeing many Qing examples? If a real difference, it could be the difference between military and civilian/militia weapons.
(Wrapping doesn't stop one from moving the hands - polearm-dao can have wrapped hafts - so it doesn't mean any difference is usage is necessary. But there could be a difference in usage.)
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Dec 28, 2014 2:44:48 GMT
for more localized timber - Bai mu Cypress (Northern is preferred) Xiang mu or Gao li mu - a hardwood like Oak from Korea You mu Burmese (and Indian) Teak -It is strong, of medium weight, and of average hardness hope this helps  |
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Post by jonathanb on Dec 28, 2014 9:40:04 GMT
Thank you folks for the great advises. Timo - please refer to my article about the Miao Dao for a discussion of different grips: cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/2014/10/the-brilliance-of-chinese-longsword.htmlYou are correct - it is possible to change hands. However, it is impossible to slide them well, which is very important trait among all modern miao dao practitioners that I have had contact with or seen on videos. The handle of the miao dao is wielded like a staff. Just try to imagine putting leather grips on a staff, and you will see why it wouldn't work. I concur that in older paintings of chang dao there are often katana-like grips. I cannot say what it is so. The techniques specified in the oldest manuals do require a smooth grip, but the manuals do not tell us how the handle should be made. With weapons that utilize one-handed grip or with which one is not expected to switch grip often (or at all), there is a natural preference for the strongest grip possible. What this causes though is that when you switch grips, your palms tend to detach more from the surface, and for longer. The sliding of smoother grip allows a faster transition with more surface area during that transition. With the miao dao, like many Northern-Chinese staff techniques, you switch grips quite often, so this becomes important. |
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 28, 2014 17:15:20 GMT
Hello Jonathan ,
Please accept that I'm only asking questions to understand your need as well as learn more about wood. I'm actually going to be making wooden sayas soon and this is new ground for me.
1) "Mr. Kane noted that Rosewood is too hard, and because heat can cause the metal to expand a bit, in their experience a scabbard made of Rosewood can crack as a result." What does this mean? Where is this heat coming from? From usual day temperatures? From the forming process?
2) "However, I have read on Hackberry online, and it seems to be highly perishable, with low resistance to weather and bugs. " Is this a big concern for you? Are you leaving the scabbard outside?
3) Look at page 4 of this PDF file (http://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/corrosion_of_metals_by_wood.pdf). Cedar and oak wood is highly acidic, and unless special precautions are taken, they would be your worst choices for a tool steel blade
4) I don't understand the issue of "wood too hard". I do understand that if the wood is too hard or coarse it might scratch your blade. I also understand that wood that "moves" over time or because of changing moisture and that would cause the wood will crack.
5) Honestly I don't know if any issues with huali or hackberry. FYI: Here is a vid of a hackberry(?) saya I charred. I think it looks great. And I got lucky perhaps and own a nice huali saya.
6) Walnut is probably your best choice. Has a low level of shrinkage when drying, and suffers very little seasonal movement, and it's not too hard.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2014 13:09:24 GMT
Hi Jonathan,
Cedar is fairly soft and can dent easily. The wood used on Chinese sword handles that are mot wrapped are usually more durable woods.
I have a few questions about your proposed sword though. The weight of 7-9kg (15-20lbs) seems excessive, I've read your article on the miao dao and watched the video of your master performing his form, the techniques, even though circular, involve some direction changes. You also discuss the importance of whipping motions and the inherent flexibility of the miao dao blade. Do you not think that you will lose the characteristics of the sword by making it so heavy? Won't you lose the ability to make sudden changes in direction and smaller subtle movements?
If you don't mind me saying, a 20lb sword is not going to be very manoeuvrable, and will resist changes in direction due to its inertia, and will require great strength to wield. Muscles can be trained to increase in strength, joints and ligaments usually don't respond to the same degree. There's a good chance you'll damage the connective tissue in your wrists, elbows and shoulders if you attempt to execute the techniques you train in with a sword which is that far overweighted. I have tried waving a 20lb length of steel, a common 1.8m long x 2.5cm thick (6' long x 1" thick) weight training barbell bar weighs just that, as is a 6 foot long wrecking bar for smashing concrete - sure it doesn't have the distal taper, but it's not much fun to swing around in any way.
Remember in the Chinese martial arts, very heavy weapons, such as the guan dao (kwan dao) which is a heavy halberd polearm, is propelled by the whole body and kept in motion in a circular path under the momentum of its own weight. Heavy weapons are a different class of weapon and are both propelled and manipulated in a different fashion to lighter weapons, and the techniques are executed differently.
The techniques for the miao dao will work in the historical weight ranges of the weapon as they existed, if you want to train for strength in the movements but still perform the techniques with proper form without damaging your body in the long term, it may be wiser to use a sword that is in the upper end of the true historical weight ranges. The Japanese use a heavy Suburi Bokken (Suburito)for this type of training, it feels slightly different, but is still within a weight range that still feels right when practising raining forms.
More importantly, Xing Yi, like all Chinese internal arts, generate power from a relaxed body, and with that weight of sword, you can't be relaxed, your muscles will be tense holding such a weight that you will be propelling the blade with straight muscular strength (assuming you are capable of such a physical feat), so you will really practising an external 'yang' style that relies on brute force and no longer training in an internal style.
As a taiji practitioner training in dao, I'm Interested in your response.
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Post by jonathanb on Dec 29, 2014 14:33:32 GMT
DigsFossils-n-Knives - Thanks for the feedback. The person who brought up the 'expanding metal' issue was Mr. Kane, not myself. I have read many reviews of SinoSwords previous works. Two people seemed to have issues with a scabbard that arrived with minor cracks. I don't know what kind of heat Mr. Kane was thinknig of. Perhaps heat exposure during delivery or, more likely, the heat of the summer. I live in Israel, where it normally gets to 35-40 Celsius in summertime. I haven't a clue whether that's enough to make the metal expand and crack the scabbard, but I had preferred taking Mr. Kane's word for it, since if he's worried than there must be a reason. Perhaps he is mistaken though. I train outside often, and during summertime the sword will get lots of sun exposure. The scabbard too is likely to be put on grass and such. Most of the time though it would remain in a shaded room (which can also get to 30+ Celsius). Humidity is very high as well, sometimes 90% +. I think the hardness of the wood was Mr. Kane's concern as in where if the metal expands and the wood is too hard it won't give way and be more prone to crack? That was my reasoning at least. The Huali they use is simply poor quality, that is why I don't like it. The Hackberry I have read on several website is quite 'perishable'. See here for instance: www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/hackberry/ . Fact that it is valnurable to insect attacks is also a problem, since it would be arriving all the way from China. My large spears arrived from China with woodworms in them, and took me a while to kill these critters. Will take note on the Cedar and Oak. I too prefer the Walnut. Actually I have just now received a new email from Mr. Kane. He attempted to clarify that what he meant was that since the saya are glued (I think two pieces put together), "after a long time they can break if without metal fittings after thermal expansion and cold shrinkage". Blackthorn - Your concerns are justified, and I appreciate you taking the time to write them down. For correct technical practice I have my regular miao dao already. This sword is intended for strength training. I could have ordered a 4-5kg sword and that would have been quite heavy already. However, being expensive and all, you don't order such a sword every day. Furthermore, once it's made, the weight is not adjustable. Thus, I preferred a sword which would be heavy enough to continue to challenge me 20 years from now. I practice my Pigua in very slow motion as well, much like Tai Chi and the way I practice my Xing Yi a lot. It gives you different types of benefits of and insight into training and application. You are correct that with fast movements I would be risking my connective tissues. This sword would simply have the slow motion as the default mode due to its weight. I too tried waving a barbell a few times in the past - an 18kg one. So I have a sense of how it feels. You are correct with regard to tense muscles. That can become a problem. When I just started Xing Yi I used to lift very heavy weights. I stopped since it hindered my progression. After many years though, I am slowly coming back to moderate strength training, and I find that since I am now capable of establishing decent relaxation at will, this training no longer counter-balances my ability to relax or produce relaxed fa jin. The only time I feel it makes my nei gong weaker is during the 30-60 minutes after strength training. But it does not hinder my overall progress. Neither am I engaging in classical bodybuilding. Most of my training is comprised of very challenging bodyweight exercises with high repetitions, and even high-rep deadlifts. I have written a huge book on the Internal arts, their mechanics, the differences between Internal and External, etc: www.researchofmartialarts.com(72 free pages from it are available on that website) I disagree that any heavy weight one is going to lift is necessarily prone to screw up your structure or internal mechanics. Traditional Xing Yi Quan utilizes large poles or spears. I train with them as well. They are 3.5 meter long, and mine weight about 3kg. You arrive at training with them after several years of slowly building up your structure, and adding bigger and bigger spears. Eventually, you are indeed more tense with the spear compared with empty hands, but you remain soft and pliable nonetheless. The lever of that spear and that of the miao dao I ordered is almost the same: 3.5m X 3kg = 10.5 , 1.34m X 8 = 10.72 . When I just started with that big spear, you bet I was as tense as one can get... But over time as you improve, your structure relaxes more and more. Bagua master Fu Zhensong had a very large Bagua Dao which he received as a gift. He used to train and perform with it publicly. He did so even on the day he passed away (poor guy then went to the toilet, slipped, bumped his head on an angle and died. He was 82 years old). %A6%E5%88%80).jpg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Baguadao_(%E5%85%AB%E5% %A6%E5%88%80).jpg26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhvi9wsOhG1qho5xyo1_500.jpgWe cannot tell, but I guess that sword weighted at least as much as the miao dao I ordered. The miao dao, by the way, is also wielded with some movements in a similar manner to the Guan Dao, in that it has continuous momentum throughout several movements. This is a characteristic of the Pigua system as a whole. Mind that Pigua's structure, though relaxed, is very 'external' and not as 'springy' as that of Xing Yi. Though I practice both arts, I do not use the exact same mechanics. My opinion is actually that swords (of any kind) do not really work well with Xing Yi. Xing Yi practice with swords was an implementation by people who already knew weapons (independent or of other systems) and incorporated them into their Xing Yi. It is unlike with Dai Xin Yi's and XinYi LiuHe's swords, which suits the mechanics of their styles better to begin with. This we see in a lot of systems - weapons that are actually foreign to the mindset of the system as a whole. Pigua, for instance, cannot really be used with a medium or big spear. Baji Quan is too brutal for a Jian. Taiji Quan wasn't meant for a miao dao. Southern Mantis cannot handle a Guan Dao well... etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2014 23:41:07 GMT
Good points Jonathan, as long as you're not changing the dynamics of your art to compensate for the weight, and practising slowly to not risk injury then all is well!
I have also had the same experience as you in regards to training with heavy weights and have moved to a similar exercise regime to what you describe.
To elaborate further on the point of a heavy weight messing up your structure or internal mechanics, if the weapon is meant to be a heavy weapon and wielded as such then it won't change anything, if it's a weapon with more refined or subtle movements then the human body's physical limits will come into play. I'm not familiar with the Pigua system, appreciate your explanation, and I agree that certain weapons and their dynamics will not fit into certain styles.
Thanks for sharing the link to your website with the free chapter of your book, it's very interesting reading an is an excellent in-depth analysis on the subject!
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Post by jonathanb on Dec 30, 2014 0:23:22 GMT
Thanks for the compliments friend! With the Internal Arts, though relaxation exists, one still attempts to have control most of the time. Very few martial arts really teach one to lose control and allow the momentum to carry you completely. The only ones I know of are Tongbei Quan, Pigua Zhang, Traditional (!) Drunken Fist (Zui Quan) and some branches of Russian Systema. It is a whole different mindset. When you do not have to control your own momentum or that of the other person or weapon much, then the body gains many things at the expense of others. This is how and why I can train with my current miao dao for 2 hours straight and still not drain myself. You can read more about my Pigua lineage here: cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/2012/11/the-versatile-whip.htmlMerry Christmas and a happy new year for everyone on the forum :-) |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 0:35:34 GMT
Jonathan, I just had an idea. Since the sword's weight will make it so heavy, the scabbard would not be used for carrying the sword on your belt, it would be more to protect the blade. That being the case, could you ask to have the scabbard constructed so it is a loose fit, to allow for any expansion, and prevent cracking. Rosewood really does look nice!
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Post by jonathanb on Dec 31, 2014 11:20:51 GMT
Oh, I will actually carry this thing around. I walk to various gardens and parks to train, usually 10-15 minutes each direction. A pain if it rattles too much.
Seems now that the wood of choice is likely going to be African Redwood. This and Walnut were the only ones Mr. Kane could locate, but the Walnut is almost double the price.
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