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Post by lethalcurves on Dec 20, 2014 15:51:00 GMT
Hello all
Iam new to the Katana collecting and what not so need some advice really. after buying my first Katana here in UK which is a Damascus folded sword from the sword stall , it is ok but the tsukaito is terrible. I would like to know if there are any production blades out there that are actually worth the money? in most cases are you paying for the blade? I have always wanted a really old Katana so i thougnht well maybe £1000.00 might get me one and boy was i wrong as the condition of a blade at this price is rusty and not very well cared for. So basically i have been looking through forums for a good few weeks and i have yet to come across a sword with raving reviews and no negative feedback all of them have some problem. For instance the Ronin dojo pro appear to be really good and get better eviews than some Hanwei blades , and i have heard bad things about Hanwei quality control. So basically what i am saying is what sword is there that can be bought for about £600.00/£1000.00 that is a great all round sword not just used for cutting paper and is very near to perfect. Or would i be better saving my money for an old sword.
Thanks for your time
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Post by Aurélien on Dec 20, 2014 16:54:43 GMT
So you didn't buy the Musashi Daito? www.sword-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24176What's exactly your definition of "very near of perfect"? For some people, a $300 ronin dojo pro with counter-polished kissaki and no ishigami perfectly fulfills their expectations. And for others, a $10000 Rick Barrett katana is far from being perfect... because it's simply not forged by a Japanese master with real Japanese tamahagane...
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Post by lethalcurves on Dec 20, 2014 17:01:42 GMT
No i am indeed buying the Musashi Daito but after them i want a really good Katana , when i say perfect i mean as close as too ancient tradition as possible without the high price tag , if that makes sense. For instance is there any forges that make there blades that much better than the others , for instance i heard Bugei use the same Blades from the Hanwei forge ,mis there a company that produce limited amount of blade than just churn them out by the hundreds?
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Post by Aurélien on Dec 20, 2014 17:10:00 GMT
Well... imho, for £1000, Bugei and Kanie will be your best bets. A Bugei Dragonfly is for sale in the classifieds...
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Post by Aurélien on Dec 20, 2014 17:23:18 GMT
The Bugei ShiShi is very nice and "close" of a real Edo nihonto. For a production sword , I mean.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Dec 20, 2014 18:45:36 GMT
So basically what i am saying is what sword is there that can be bought for about £600.00/£1000.00 that is a great all round sword not just used for cutting paper and is very near to perfect. Or would i be better saving my money for an old sword. I have a mumei Shinto katana (true nihonto), and I would never use it outside of advanced Iaido training. That being said, I did cut tatami omote with it once, but that's all the cutting I'll ever do with it. Most nihonto collectors cringe when people say they want an old Japanese sword to "use" for cutting practice (at least that's what I get you want to do with one from your post). Most nihonto collectors wouldn't want their prized possesion(s) breaking, seeing as their not just collectible pieces, but historical artifacts as well. Aurelien has good recomendations for you - Bugei/Kaneie are your best bets outside of getting a true nihonto, and you can cut away to your heart's desire without fear of ruining a historical sword even if it's not a National Treasure. Here's an old picture of my katana
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Post by lethalcurves on Dec 20, 2014 19:33:32 GMT
So basically what i am saying is what sword is there that can be bought for about £600.00/£1000.00 that is a great all round sword not just used for cutting paper and is very near to perfect. Or would i be better saving my money for an old sword. I have a mumei Shinto katana (true nihonto), and I would never use it outside of advanced Iaido training. That being said, I did cut tatami omote with it once, but that's all the cutting I'll ever do with it. Most nihonto collectors cringe when people say they want an old Japanese sword to "use" for cutting practice (at least that's what I get you want to do with one from your post). Most nihonto collectors wouldn't want their prized possesion(s) breaking, seeing as their not just collectible pieces, but historical artifacts as well. Aurelien has good recomendations for you - Bugei/Kaneie are your best bets outside of getting a true nihonto, and you can cut away to your heart's desire without fear of ruining a historical sword. Here's an old picture of my katana Thanks very much for your input , well i think i have confused myself to be honest. basically i have started collecting Katana as i think they are works of art , a painting on Kanvas would just bore me , though i am a painter myself painting movie and comic statue and 1/6 figures , i think a Katana has so much deffiniton and life they really apeal to me. I would want a Katana from lets say the 1600s and restore and display only , and then learn about the forge master whom created it. But i want a sword the same grade i can actually cut with without comprimise. hope all this makes sense?
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Post by lethalcurves on Dec 20, 2014 19:35:12 GMT
Also very nice Katana LG but why the three holes in the tang? Different peg positions?
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Post by randomnobody on Dec 20, 2014 19:37:45 GMT
I'll echo the others, upper-end Hanwei/Bugei and Kaneie are the top dogs in the production world. At least, for your budget. If tamahagane is what you want, the least you'll pay is $2,000 US even for Chinese-made production stuffs.
If you want something more unique, or even a pure custom, you'll want to save more and go with a trusted smith; we can recommend several based on what you might like.
Edit: Also, please don't cut with antiques. Priceless historic treasure it not, they're irreplaceable artifacts and deserve respect as such.
As to multiple mekugi-ana, not at all uncommon. The blade may have been shortened such that the original would not work, or perhaps the first hole has decayed somewhat and is boo longer offering a secure hold. More often than not, it's just s matter of where the tsuka winds up on a new mounting.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Dec 20, 2014 20:02:05 GMT
Also very nice Katana LG but why the three holes in the tang? Different peg positions? Random nailed it - it's probably been remounted several times thoughout it's history, thereby having three mekugi-ana instead of one.
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Post by lethalcurves on Dec 20, 2014 21:14:48 GMT
I'll echo the others, upper-end Hanwei/Bugei and Kaneie are the top dogs in the production world. At least, for your budget. If tamahagane is what you want, the least you'll pay is $2,000 US even for Chinese-made production stuffs. If you want something more unique, or even a pure custom, you'll want to save more and go with a trusted smith; we can recommend several based on what you might like. Edit: Also, please don't cut with antiques. Priceless historic treasure it not, they're irreplaceable artifacts and deserve respect as such. As to multiple mekugi-ana, not at all uncommon. The blade may have been shortened such that the original would not work, or perhaps the first hole has decayed somewhat and is boo longer offering a secure hold. More often than not, it's just s matter of where the tsuka winds up on a new mounting. Thank you very much for your response. yes well my main problem is living in Uk paying such high import and tax charges and for the customs to moan and what not the hassle is of putting to be honest. I know apparently the law has changed meaning the sword has to be traditionally made , but i have heard of stories were they have had to have offical letter from the forge stating so and that it can sometimes take six months to get it. NO! I would not use an antique sword to cut with i just like the fact they have so much history and you never know what a sword has been through and the fact they are so respected. Were as anybody really could go out and buy a Katana that is mass produced which is fine as the high end are very well made but i would like my production katanas when peopl say OH! They are nice and you tell them about the swords and then you have this extra special sword that is rare and what not. what im trying to say is , should i go out and buy more modern day swords or just save and save to buy antique for many years. as i would rather have one antique Katana that is going to at least hold its value for many years than mass produced that will basically just lose money.
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Post by lethalcurves on Dec 20, 2014 21:21:24 GMT
I'll echo the others, upper-end Hanwei/Bugei and Kaneie are the top dogs in the production world. At least, for your budget. If tamahagane is what you want, the least you'll pay is $2,000 US even for Chinese-made production stuffs. If you want something more unique, or even a pure custom, you'll want to save more and go with a trusted smith; we can recommend several based on what you might like. Edit: Also, please don't cut with antiques. Priceless historic treasure it not, they're irreplaceable artifacts and deserve respect as such. As to multiple mekugi-ana, not at all uncommon. The blade may have been shortened such that the original would not work, or perhaps the first hole has decayed somewhat and is boo longer offering a secure hold. More often than not, it's just s matter of where the tsuka winds up on a new mounting. So Tamahagane is one of the top dogs for Katana making? So whom are the top class modern day sword makers? also this is sort of what im trying to say there are some Tamahagane Katana for $4000.00 but you can get some Nihonto blades for that price so why not buy the Nihonto blade? Or am i missing something here?
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Dec 20, 2014 22:22:42 GMT
Japanese swordsmiths can only use two different steels for their bladed weapons, tamahagane (outer steel jacket) and orishigane (inner steel core). There is one style that only uses tamahagane - maru lamination. These swordsmiths are constrained by Japanese laws, which forbids them from using newer steels when making a shinken (live sword). The Chinese and other swordsmiths around the world also can and do use their versions of tamahagane, including Rick Barrett, but are not considererd "true"tamahagane in the sense that it was not made in Japan. Kaneie (Chinese forge) has really nice tamahagane katanas, usually starting around the $2,000+ range. Jeffrey Ching (a fellow SBG member/vendor) is an official vendor for Kaneie - send him a PM and he'll more than likely work with you figuring out what would be best. Bugei doesn't make their swords out of tamahagane, but sometimes have links to tamahagane katanas (both traditional Japanese smiths and other smiths too). You can check them out here: www.bugei.com/Seenthis.html*Edit: Here's a link to a really good PDF about the makings of a traditional Japanese sword: The Forging of a Japanese Katana
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Post by randomnobody on Dec 20, 2014 22:39:03 GMT
I wouldn't say tamahagane is "top dog," per se. There are other steels, more modern steels, that are trusted more due to their more homogenous origins and more refined structure from the beginning. Tamahagane is a mixture of various levels of high and low carbon steels and other materials that take a lot of effort to make into a good sword. Anything made new for less than $2k US probably isn't very good. You can get an antique wakizashi for less than $1k US, in decent shape, sometimes in koshirae. More often than not, though, you'd be looking for an older-polished blade in shirasaya.
There are Hanwei etc. vendors in the UK, I can never remember them, though. These folks should be able to help get you something at the best deal possible with the least hassle, skipping the whole import headache altogether. Well, on your end, anyway. You'll probably still wind up paying a share of the taxes and all.
For unique, but cheap, you can see if anybody's had luck getting eBay vendor Huawei's stuff into the UK. I haven't heard of anybody who has, though...
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Post by Anankai on Dec 20, 2014 22:41:39 GMT
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Post by randomnobody on Dec 20, 2014 22:44:54 GMT
Four thousand Euro, ouch! Pretty, though.
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Post by lethalcurves on Dec 20, 2014 23:05:56 GMT
I wouldn't say tamahagane is "top dog," per se. There are other steels, more modern steels, that are trusted more due to their more homogenous origins and more refined structure from the beginning. Tamahagane is a mixture of various levels of high and low carbon steels and other materials that take a lot of effort to make into a good sword. Anything made new for less than $2k US probably isn't very good. You can get an antique wakizashi for less than $1k US, in decent shape, sometimes in koshirae. More often than not, though, you'd be looking for an older-polished blade in shirasaya. There are Hanwei etc. vendors in the UK, I can never remember them, though. These folks should be able to help get you something at the best deal possible with the least hassle, skipping the whole import headache altogether. Well, on your end, anyway. You'll probably still wind up paying a share of the taxes and all. For unique, but cheap, you can see if anybody's had luck getting eBay vendor Huawei's stuff into the UK. I haven't heard of anybody who has, though... Yeah i know what you mean at one time wasnt Paul Chen using railway steel for his swords? yeah i have spotted a few Wakizashi on UK auction house sites for £500.00 but the blades have some rust spots and need a good polish. Tsuka condition does not bother me as you can have them reconditioned very easily for about £70.00. So a sword made for under $2K isnt even worth considering? Well that would be almost all swords apart from the $4K swords as the Hanwei swords must only cost from as little as $100.00 to make even the high price Hanwei swords must only cost double or triple that. one thing i dont understand with the likes of Hanwei and others is that they have there lower end swords and then the highest price on their sites but how do you tell if your not getting a crappy blade with different fittings until the blade is actually in your hand? Makes no sense to me at all as paying $4K for a modern sword that will lower in value when you can get a lovely old sword for that price will either keep its value or rise. There are many old Katanas in Japan on Ebay for less than £1000.00 and not much more with certificates but all you seem to hear is they are probably fake as you cant really tell from just there pictures. A bit scary when you think about that you could be throwing a lot of money into a sword that could be only worth the steel scrap value.
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Post by lethalcurves on Dec 20, 2014 23:06:43 GMT
Four thousand Euro, ouch! Pretty, though. Yep that is my concern , why not just buy a nice genuine 1600s katana?
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Post by Aurélien on Dec 21, 2014 0:36:20 GMT
Four thousand Euro, ouch! Pretty, though. Indeed, Paul Chen's son is quite gifted.
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Post by Aurélien on Dec 21, 2014 0:41:53 GMT
@ lethalcurves : swords are like cars - some people would prefer a 2014 Maseratti, some others a 1930 Bentley. Which is the best/real car? Imho, both are. But for different reasons, and different purposes.
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