Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
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Post by Klaver on Nov 12, 2014 12:42:38 GMT
Besides laws, Japanese forges are using ZA because you can slowly built up your muscles and transfer from Bokken to ZA is less radical, joints do not lie, I have seen plenty of RSI injuries, due to wrong techniques, to long Iaito’s or weights who are to high. I also think a martial artist wants to train safely, most Iaido dojo’s do not even allow shinken in their Dojo, so you have to choose for a dull edge, now you can choose between ZA, stainless steel of (dull) high carbon steel. The specific weight will affect the weight distribution, you will have more weight to distribute, you see.
If you to choose, I recommend to go from bokken>ZA>Shinken or bokken>ZA>SS>Shinken, or if you want Bokken>ZA>Dull HCS<Shinken.
The knowledge regarding forging Katanas and Iaito's in Japan is the largest. I think it is important to train with a qualitative Iaito. Now you need to make a clear decision whats best for you, and what you are looking for. I will not fall into the discussion: “a long time ago I saw a Japanese Iaito and ….bla,bla, you have fittings with from 1 kg, bla,bla”. I think the Japanese are very good crafsmen and have attention for all of the details and are making very decent Iaito’s, most of the Chinese Iaito’s are really bad, it is not the case they are not doing their best, they simply are not aware of the Iaito needs. All the options have pro and cons, a honest, reliable and experience vendor will mention them. Nishijin/tozando is not coming from Huanuo, as far as I know, I will ask this when I speak to them.
Concerning length, also some (Chinese) forges are maybe not fully focussed on martials artists but chasing their targets so do not have time to make suitable (you can call it custom) lengths. I do not even see length for a custom options, a true forge should simply offer this option, if not, just a big no go. You cannot train decently with an Iaito which is to long or short, maybe some people knows it better than most high grades sensei’s, it’s a free world, it’s a fact you will always get what you paid for.
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Post by ridhwan5 on Nov 14, 2014 0:47:16 GMT
Wow...few days since I last enter this forum and the response have been fabulous! Thanks all for the great responses! Klaver I agree that not all Chinese iaitos are bad, just as I agree that not all Japanese iaitos are good. I have seen my seniors order some iaitos from a Japanese website that ended up being crap. Hence, why I prefer those with reputation like Tozando and Nishijin. However, since Nishijin uses WKC's SS blades and you mentioned that their quality of work is not up to standard, I shall scrap this idea and go back to my original searchlist, which is Tozando Habahiro ZA, Yamato Budogu ZA, Nosyudo and Kaneie's SS. @jeffery And Klaver, while my Dojo did not allow Shinken for practice, unless its for Tameshigiri, there are some requirements needed for Iaito usage. My Dojo's requirement for Iaitos is that they be 920-980grams in weight without saya. This, according to my Sensei, is so that the Iaito is closer in to a proper Shinken but not too heavy that it will hurt the joints while training. And this is why I am looking at the heavy toshin range of ZA blades, or SS blades. The second requirement for Iaitos of my Dojo, and this is more my Sensei's requirement, is to keep Tsuba design simple, and be made of Iron. Hence, Mokko and Musashi Tsubas are fine, but complicated designs like those bronze/copper dragon tsubas we see in some China forges is a big no no. @jeffery I understand that customizing of Iaito may seems egoistic, and I do get your point that some beginners will 'pimp up' their iaitos, but my reasons for customizing are to meet my Dojo requirements, and also my religious and personal requirements. I also understand that it is difficult to track a single custom iaito in the mass ordering of Iaitos, especially from a forge like Kaneie, but I will still like to try or at least find out if its possible. Now, my Dojo requirements, as stated above, is for a Iron Mokko or Musashi tsuba, though I do prefer Mokko. For my height of 176cm, the nagasa is 2.45shaku while the tsuka be 8.5 to 9sun. This is based on how the koshirae will fit, for I have seen some seniors with 8.5sun tsukas too short because of the fittings. My religion forbids me owning items with depictions of animals or people, hence for fittings, nature theme is most preferred. The good thing is that there are many flower blossoms designs for menuki, Fuchi and koshira, hence I am looking for sakura zogan or chrysanthemum blossom fittings. Brass material is preferred over alloy option. My personal preference is that I prefer black samegawa over white samegawa, blue/green for the tsuka ito, japanese cotton preferred, and saya be kuroishime or chaishime. Ok, my personal preference may be egoistic abit, but I do want my iaito to show its mine as compared to the rest of my fellow dojo mates. As you can see above, my customization options are more cosmetic at best. I am not going into what type of kissaki or how thick I want the mune or the curvature of sori. As mentioned, my options are more cosmetic, so I do hope that I can get something close to that from Kaneie forge. SS steel blade. The alternative will be ordering from Tozando or Nosyudo, with their heavier ZA blade option. Budget wise, I am hoping that it wont exceed 500USD without shipping. Its a tough call, I know, but if I can order a SS iaito from Kaneie forge, with as close to my requirements as possible, I would be able to overshot my budget abit. My main concern is if the forge can directly ship to my country rather than deliver to Euro country before shipping to my country, if that make sense. I thanks all again for the replies given in this thread, and for helping me understand the forge industry better. Arigato
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Post by Google on Nov 14, 2014 1:17:05 GMT
Your requirement are very standard, so be relaxed. For fittings I recommend higo fuchi-kashira, they are very theme-neutral and very practical. Yamato Budogu Bishamonten custom are the best iaito I've handled, but they start at 600-650I think. They are well worth it though. After those I recommend kaneie, and Tozando are last in quality IMO. And Kaneie should be able to send directly from the forge, that's what they did in my case in the past.
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Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
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Post by Klaver on Nov 14, 2014 19:04:36 GMT
Do not get me wrong, chinese forges are really doing good jobs with functional katana’s and for example Hanwei will probably add different lengths with their Iaito’s in future,at least that’s what I am trying to explain to them, I hope they will listen to me. And yep, you always will get what your pay for.
The fact is with stainless steel it will be a bigger weight, but if you want to train with an Iaito close to a shinken propertys, stainless steel probably is a good choice.
Yep, I do like the Yamato Iaito’s I have handled, the Murayama I offer are same like Minosaka Series.
I do think a customised Iaito can be a reflection of your soul, anyway, good luck with your search.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Nov 14, 2014 20:55:20 GMT
As an Iaido practitioner for 10+ years, I wholeheartedly agree with Jeffery. After almost a year into my training, Sihan Miyake allowed me to buy a Japanese made iaito. It was well made, but too short and light for my tastes, so I bought another one from him (also made in Japan - he's made it clear he won't accept any iaito or shinken from other countries in his dojo), much more to my likings - heavier weight, longer tsuka, and no bohi. While the first iaito was nice, it just wasn't good for me or my training. Good luck finding an iaito that will hopefully help you on your path through the sword arts.
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Post by Google on Nov 14, 2014 22:45:52 GMT
There is no difference between a 950 gram ZA mogito and a 950 gram SS mogito. If the weight and balance are the same, it's all the same. I've taken tennis-elbow from a 830 (!) gram ZA mogito, but not from a 1260 gram chinese shinken. From my experience hanwei makes pretty bad mogito, I've seen tsuka-maki that unwrapped and improperly shaped tsuka.
I believe Japan's Yamato Budogu and Nosyudo produce the best iaito for training, compared to all the other Japanese companies I've handled, and in the Chinese arena that Kaneie are the closest to that Japanese standard.
About iaito customization to express one's soul: Hypothetically, yes. But considering you choose from modern replicas out of existing stock... It loses it's point. Today "customization" starts to become the same as "flashy", but a sword needs to be practical, and only then one should think about his "spirit" and whatnot. True customization is very expensive, and I think beginners are best invest their money in good fit&finish, not in flashy colors and extras.
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Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
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Post by Klaver on Nov 15, 2014 10:25:12 GMT
I will try to explain, in weight there is of course no difference between a ZA and SS 950 gram Iaito. But here were go, if you have two similar Iaito’s of mogito, and I mean really, really similar with specs, the Iaito from SS will be more heavy, that’s due to mass of the same unit voume. In this article of mine I quote the values: www.samurai-katana-shop.nl/en/bl ... -iaito-n30 I have discussed a long time about this matter with some high ranked iaidokas and a physiotherapist, who happend to be a friend of mine and trains Iaido also. RSI related injuries are a result of overburden. In the line of expectation this will occur with Iaido due to overweight training or wrong techniques. Yes, hanwei has some points to improve their Iaito’s, but I have faith they have the knowledge and skills to make a decent Iaito in future. Discussing about the point of improvement and good material, thank you for your feedback at least. I think if you can choose between fitting A and B, and specs are the same and gives your an extra added value to train more satisfied, I think they reached their goals, but thats my opinion. Some food thought, if customisation has to do with a shinken, you will hear nobody, when concerns Iaito you have lot to discuss, I think principles should be the same.
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Post by dave lorrez on Nov 15, 2014 11:30:29 GMT
Have the feeling we're going a bit offtopic here so maybe better if the Mod split this up ? While i don't have any experience in Japanese Martial Arts (let's be clear about that.. ) i do know something about MA (or that's what i like to think ) and believe that lot of these injuries are caused by the fact that people are not preparing their body to 'swing a weight' for x hours / week. Picking up your sword for x times a week and hoping you will make it some day is just not very realistic. A boxer don't get good punches or combinations by just practicing his boxing drills, a tennis player don't get good at his/her game if he/she doesn't practice other things than swinging the racket, a sprinter doesn't get fast legs if he/she only practice running, etc.. If some practitioners would see that more is needed than just picking up their sword and going to their dojo few times a week (at best) to practice in a responsible way (for their body) , i'm sure most of these 'overload' injuries could be prevented and this ZA vs SS would become even more irrelevant And i need to join Jeff when he says that they only reason you can find ZA in japan is because of their law... nothing else..
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Post by Jeffrey Ching on Nov 15, 2014 11:49:35 GMT
The weight of a sword has NOTHING to do with muscle injuries. Tennis players get a tennis elbow while the racket weight about 350 grams. The repetitive stain injury in sword use is caused by having a forceful grip on the hand while having to endure physical shocks.
Overly aggressive movements and improperly shaped tsuka (which cause bad tenouchi) are the main reason for this.
To ridhwan5: After a talk with the owner of Kaneie it appears that about 10-15 years ago, the Tozando and Nishjin swords were indeed made by Kaneie.
However this was the predecessor of Kaneie which operated under the wing of renowned iaito manufacturer Nosyudo. Not many know this but Kaneie was actually founded by the owner of Nosyudo (or Nosyuiaido). They were educated by him and his team, hence the major differences between Kaneie and other Chinese brands.
This also explains the similarities with the Nishijin sword in the review and current sword of Kaneie.
Both Tozando and Yamato are solid choices. Just try to stay away from the cheaper models as you'll always sacrifice a bit of quality for the lower price.
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Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
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Post by Klaver on Nov 15, 2014 14:03:16 GMT
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Post by etiennehamel on Nov 15, 2014 14:36:59 GMT
i'm not really a martial artist (i sure as hell would love to be) but i'm doing suburi with a 5-10lbs iron pole without any injury so i'm pretty sure that the most important thing there isn't the weight but the technique and more importantly to not push yourself too much so i wonder why if weight is so important in injuries why am i not screaming of pain at this moment?
this post isn't supposed to sound bad it is only an innocent question :lol: and sorry for the thread highjack ^^'
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Post by ridhwan5 on Nov 21, 2014 13:30:57 GMT
I would like to thank all those who have replied to this thread.
This thread started out with whether tozando steel iaitos are assembled in Japan, with Japanese fittings and german blades, to which are the best iaitos for martial artists to use and the whether Japanese or chinese fittings make any difference.
What I can summarize from everything discussed here is that not all Japanese made iaitos are essentially good and not all Chinese made iaitos are essentially bad. And that there are no difference between ZA and SS blades, its just Japan's Law.
In order of quality, the best quality iaitos are: 1) Nosyudo Iaitos 2) Yamato Budogu Iaitos 3) Kaneie Forge Iaitos 4) Tozando Iaitos
I am really tempted by the Bishamonten custom iaito by Yamato Budogu but I am trying to keep to my budget of 500USD. I am considering the Yamato Series Iaito or the Nosyudo iaito, if I can find it.
THanks again to all who have replied.
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Post by Google on Nov 22, 2014 13:02:20 GMT
The Yamato series are also very good. I would make the extra budget for the bishamonten, it's really great.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Nov 24, 2014 12:43:35 GMT
I guess I was partially correct in my assumption, as some of them were made by what became Kaneie. I agree that Nosyudo iaitos are very high quality from what I have heard, and I've seen one that I know for certain and it was a good one. Here is a link to Nosyudo: nosyudo.jp/The funny thing is that back in 2005 when I ordered my own custom iaito from Nishijin they had Suzaku custom models, and I have read later that Suzaku lineup was Igarashi/Nosyudo work. Originally I thought it to be similar to Tozando iaito, but there are threads at many forums that say Suzaku line was by Nosyudo. It was a good sword, even though I think it was bit too light for 2 shaku 6 sun 5 bu sword. I've always liked this shot of it. I would agree with Google here, I think it's better to save a bit longer and buy an iaito you really like.
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Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
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Post by Klaver on Nov 24, 2014 19:09:04 GMT
I think with Nosyudo Iaito or bishamonten you will not go wrong easily. I have see some and they felt balanced with a correct weight, for sure not a axes. What kind of "hamon" had you ordered with your Iaito, jessi?
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