|
Post by ridhwan5 on Nov 9, 2014 12:35:50 GMT
Hello all! Been shopping around for an iaito and while many of my senpais go for Tozando or Yamato Budogu, I decided to check out what Nishijin is about. Times have changed, since all the zinc alloy iaitos are under Tozando now, while Nishijin carries steel blade iaitos and katana. The problem is that while the furniture are Japanese, the site states that the parts are sent to Germany, where it is assembled by WKC. The steel blades are also by WKC. Anyone here have experience with WKC's blades? Or ordered thru this new Nishijin? I am zooming in to either this or Tozando Custom Workshop iaito. here is the website: www.japanesesword.net/STEEL_BLAD ... A_s/57.htm Many thanks for reading
|
|
|
Post by Google on Nov 9, 2014 17:28:40 GMT
Please take note that everything except the stainless steel line, are sharpened shinken. Last time I saw their "steel iaito", it looked like kaneie and not WKC, and kaneie make damn good swords for iai.
|
|
|
Post by Jussi Ekholm on Nov 9, 2014 17:57:20 GMT
I would second Google here. I haven't seen Nishijin steel iaito in person, but in pics they seem very similar to the Nine Circles steel iaito I had (which are made by Kaneie). I've handled WKC swords, and they are in my opinion made in the same place where Last Legend swords were made. Good cutting swords but not very refined. Here is Nishijin Steel Iaito reviewed by Student of Sword: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3990Here is my review on Nine Circles Shoden, you can see lots of similarities: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17529And here is my WKC review, it's their lowest offering but similarily to Last Legend the fit & finish on their more expensive swords is not much better in my mind, and it's very far from Nishijin quality: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16998I had my custom Zinc-alloy iaito from Nishijin c. 10 years ago when I trained iai as kid/youngster. They deliver very good product in my mind. It's sister company of Tozando but back in the day when I ordered Nishijin had superior customization options to Tozando main site.
|
|
|
Post by ridhwan5 on Nov 10, 2014 0:06:30 GMT
Thanks Jussi and Google for your awesome replies!
I am in the market for iaitos, and I am leaning towards stainless steel rather than zinc alloy for training. I wanted the weight similiar to a shinken, but without the fuss of owning a carbon steel blade (my country is rather humid).
I am originally down to either a Nine Circles Kurin Stainless Steel iaito or opt for the heavy habahiro blades of Tozando until I discover Nishijin's steel line.
If Nishijin's Stainless Steel Iaito is very similiar to Kaneie, I may have found the iaito I am looking for.
I'm still concern about the being assembled in Germany tho...oh well
|
|
|
Post by Google on Nov 10, 2014 2:14:47 GMT
Nine-Circles Kurin is also Kaneie I had only their shinken, but a 7-dan kyoshi said they are very good after handling. And that means a lot. Where do you live, btw? I'm also from a humid country.
|
|
|
Post by frankthebunny on Nov 10, 2014 2:44:59 GMT
What nagasa and tsuka length were you looking for?
|
|
|
Post by ridhwan5 on Nov 10, 2014 7:51:06 GMT
Wait, the stainless steel iaitos by Nine-CIrcles is from Kaneie? Thatz awesome news. Wanted to order a custom iaito from them but am unsure on how to go about it.
Im looking for 2.45 shaku nagasa with 8.5 or 9 sun tsuka. Im 175cm tall.
I live in Singapore, South East Asia. Hence, the humid weather.
Thanks again all for the replies
|
|
|
Post by Google on Nov 10, 2014 12:45:25 GMT
What help do you need with the custom order? i'm from israel, also a very humid country, and if you keep your blades clean there's no problem
|
|
|
Post by ridhwan5 on Nov 10, 2014 14:35:09 GMT
Well, from what I have seen from Nine Circles UK and TheSamuraiShop, the Kaneie Stainless Steel iaitos offered are already pre-fitted with set fittings. The Tozando Custom and its cousin, Nishijin, offer choices of fittings for their iaitos.
Hence, if its confirmed that Nishijin uses Kaneie products for the stainless steel line, I can just order from Nishijin.
Or, alternatively, if there is a way to order Kaneie Stainless Steel iaito with fittings of my choice, it will help me most greatly.
Thanks and appreciate all the help thus far, guys.
|
|
|
Post by Jeffrey Ching on Nov 10, 2014 15:37:48 GMT
I think I can safely say the Kaneie is not producing for Nishijin As far as I know, these are fully manufactured in Germany. I believe it to be WKC but I'm not 100% sure about that. Quality wise I don't think Nishijin steel iaito are on the same level as Tozando. Kaneie works different than Japanese iaito manufacturers and does not offer off-factory customizations. Also Nine circles only offers fixed models. Note that most European companies do not ship swords to Singapore. I've had some discussions with another client from Singapore and it seems quite complicated.
|
|
|
Post by Jussi Ekholm on Nov 10, 2014 17:55:23 GMT
Thanks for clarifying this Jeffrey. The mystery gets tighter and more interesting. I have been doing detective work today as I can read & speak decent basic German it has helped me. I think I have fiqured out who mounts these blades in Germany, and contacting him might reveal the origin of these blades. I think Mike Prill of Nihonto.eu (formerly named Japan-schwerter) is the person mounting these in Germany. Here you can see his page about sharp shinkens, the pictures on it are same as at Nine-Circles page which would indicate me they are Kaneie. www.nihonto.eu/de/iaido-jodo-und ... hl-klinge/ He also has the option for customization, few examples which can be found in his Facebook page, which I will share my thoughts next. Here is custom steel iaito in tsuru theme. www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 255&type=1 I must say that in those few blade pics the blade doesn't look like Kaneie and I must agree it looks bit WKCish. The sword in review by SoS looked in my opinion much better. The custom Tsuru iaito has T042 Mukai Tsuru tsuba, K002 Tsurukame F&K, both from Tozando/Nishijin selection. I can't find the menuki but most likely they are too. Here is custom Wave theme steel iaito. www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 255&type=1 Menuki on it look like Namichidori from Tozando, F&K K001 Hiranami, I think I remember seeing that tsuba before too, but can't find it now. It will be nice if we are able to figure out the mystery behind these blades.
|
|
|
Post by Google on Nov 10, 2014 22:46:14 GMT
Regardless of the source of Nishijin's steel iaito, I've handled a sword by WKC. They suck big time.
|
|
|
Post by ridhwan5 on Nov 11, 2014 15:04:38 GMT
Well, in that case, then I will not take the WKC blade with Japanese fittings route.
I am abit concerned by what Jeffery said, if swords from EU countries being troublesome to deliver to Asia, esp Singapore.
I may have to go the more traditional route, of ordering zinc alloy iaitos from either Tozando or Yamato Budogu.
Alternatively, will check out Bugei and Aoi Budogu, esp Aoi's Heavy tonshin series which is similiar to Tozando's Habahiro blades.
I still have not lost hope. WIll e-mail TheSamuraiWorkshop directly on Kaneie's iaitos, esp on shipping and customization options.
Many thanks all.
|
|
|
Post by Jeffrey Ching on Nov 11, 2014 15:55:56 GMT
@jussi The Nihonto.eu thing is indeed Kaneie. However Kaneie does not offer full customization for (single order) iaito. Well, maybe they can but be prepared for 6 months delivery time or more Due to the way the production line has been set up, it's difficult to keep track of single custom orders. We're working to change that though The fittings are btw the easiest way to recognize where a sword has been mode. The original moulds of the fittings are like the 'coca cola formula' of Japanese iaito manufacturers Each manufacturer has their own unique fittings that they will never give or sell to a competing company. ridhwan5You can ask right here in the topic if you want. Honesty is the way to go right As mentioned in the text above, Kaneie usually doesn't customize single order iaito, simply because their way of making swords is not built for that. Even with Tamahagane, Gokui or Menkyo custom blades I often experience delays due to this. Restorations and customizations are usually done by us from the Netherlands. However, customization on iaito is something I usually do not advise. From a martial arts perspective I believe that the first priority should be to find a sword that benefits your training, not your ego. To spend hundreds of dollars/euros extra to have your training sword customized seems a bit useless to me as there's a great chance you'll grow out of your sword within a few years. From experience I've noticed that especially beginning students have the tendency to pimp their sword fully to their liking. The thing is, you have absolutely no clue about what type of sword would fit your needs (weight, balance, tsuka length etc etc). That will only come with a few years of experience. This is probably the biggest down side of ordering a Japanese custom iaito. There is a chance that your chosen koshirae results in a balance that is not really suitable for you. Of course you are too stubborn to admit you purchased a beautiful - piece of crap sword - so you'll keep training with it. A bad sword affects your technique, your development and the joy you experience from training.
|
|
Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
|
Post by Klaver on Nov 12, 2014 8:21:07 GMT
I have seen some a WKC Iaitos and I am not very impressed about their quality. My fellow student has given it to me to fix it, the nakago didn’t fall very well in the tsuka and this was making some sound and vibrations, which was very annoying. The germans are normally very keen on high end quality with their cars but with the Iaito’s the are not fully on track, I guess.
Also I think it is great if you have already thought very thorough about the steel you want to choose. Here maybe I have some thought food for you. I think you can seen an Iaito as a step moving forward to a Shinken, but a lot of people just stay with their Iaito, so that’s the end of the road already, what is the benefit of training with a relative heavy Iaito? You have basicly 2 features, stainless steel of zinc alumium (ZA), the main difference it their specific weight, which affect their training behaviour. I think a transfer from bokken to ZA is less radical and will positive affect your techniques and will be better for your joints. A friend of mine is physical therapist and does recommend this also. But many people, many opinions, if you want directly go to an Iaito with High Carbon steel characteristics, go for it.
I think it very important to perform the techniques at a high level and slowly increase the weight, my Sensei (5th dan) also encourages this way. The ZA iaito’s are mostly coming from Japan, and in those forges they are very familiar with Iaido demands, like balance, tenouchi, quality koshirae, tight ito, etc, etc. Also very important you can choose them in different lengths, a decent forge should offers this feauture, if they cannot, it is strange, the forge focus is not really on martial artists. For example the Murayama Iaitos (ZA) from Japan are really high end and have all the characteristics who match a real high quality Iaito (different lengths, koshirae options, tsuka options, high quality mounting, etc, etc).
Anyway, it is very important to choose the right length, already mentioned but the looks should not be first, good luck find a suitable Iaito.
|
|
|
Post by dave lorrez on Nov 12, 2014 8:36:44 GMT
To me the material doesn't matter at all.. a 950 gram blade is .. well a 950 gram blade . Whether that blade be made of be ZA , stainless steel or kryptonite That being said, a very well balanced 1000 gram blade can feel less heavy when handeling than a bad balanced 950 gram one. There are some many little things than can influence the 'weight' that asking yourself what material to look for is a waste of time. But that's just my thought and nobody has to agree with that :mrgreen:
|
|
Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
|
Post by Klaver on Nov 12, 2014 9:17:35 GMT
He, he, sure, but it is a fact you have specific weight, not something you can ignore and this will affect the behaviour of the blade (Iaito). I do not think a 1000 gram blade can weight 800 gram, haha, maybe when you are hypnotised :lol:
Anyway, you have a lot of factors which determine if an Iaito is suitable, already mentioned, teno-uchi, balance (which is subjective), feel and touch, weight, length, mounting quality, etc. You just have to ask yourself what you are looking for to get the best results, length is a very important aspect now. I agree the koshirae can influence the weight also, but does not have such an impact like the blade material, with a decent forge this will be alright to.
|
|
|
Post by Jeffrey Ching on Nov 12, 2014 10:01:43 GMT
Please don't forget that zinc aluminum was only used to go around the Japanese sword laws, which prevent people from making steel / magnetic swords. I'm sure that every sword craftsman will agree on this zinc aluminum is NOT the proper material to create a training sword. It's too soft, flexible and has a very short metal fatigue lifespan. The reason that with ZA blades the bo-hi is terminated above the habaki is because if terminated under the habaki, the area of the hamachi and the mune machi would become too weak. While most people are training just for fun, having a 700-800g iaito is simply not realistic. You cannot make a shinken with that weight without jeopardizing its strength. The Japanese even do not differentiate between toy swords and zinc aluminum swords in their language. Both are referred to as mogito. The term iaito is not strictly reserved for zinc aluminum swords but also lighter nihonto which are used for iai. My experience is that all the 300 dollar zinc aluminum mogito / iaito from all the Japanese manufacturers are pretty much crap. The mounting quality may be ok, but there has been saved on just about everything. Nickel holding fittings, uneven machi, plastic samegawa / koiguchi and an aluminum alloy that will shake all over the place. Fittings don't affect the balance much? A nickel based tsuba weighs max 70-80 grams. Steel sukashi tsuba around 90-130 and a full steel plate tsuba can go up to 200g. If you don't think that makes a difference... :roll: However a weight difference of 100 grams means absolutely nothing if the balance and blade geometry is good. 1100g swords can feel like a feather and 950g swords can feel like a brick. Here's a koiguchi repair I did just a few weeks ago. Basic Japanese iaito with decent koshirae. While trying to remove the old koiguchi I noticed I went through the 'horn' waaay to easy. Turns out is was a 1mm plastic koiguchi while the lacquer was masked at 5 mm. Nice... I've seen some zinc aluminum iaito that were absolutely amazing. Exquisite quality. Made by Nosyudo and over 1000 euro. You get what you pay for. Everybody needs to make a decision for their own but know that Japanese ZA iaito are not holy. Also they are often not a proper representation of what a Japanese sword should feel like, especially the cheaper ones.
|
|
|
Post by Student of Sword on Nov 12, 2014 11:18:33 GMT
It had been a long time since I reviewed the Nishijin/Tozando katana. Since then, I come to believe that (at least the blade, if not the whole thing) was from Huanuo Sword Art, and not WKC. I don't have any conclusive evidence but there are sufficient similarity with my other Dynasty Forge katana to reason that the katana (at least the one that I reviewed; I cannot speak for other katana) blade was from Huanuo.
|
|
|
Post by dave lorrez on Nov 12, 2014 12:39:25 GMT
It is but "weight distribution" is more important than the weight itself.
|
|