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Post by AlvaroWang on Nov 4, 2014 23:40:02 GMT
Hello all…
I got a question regarding qi jian. It is said to be constructed in one piece, like it is different from other swords… But shouldn't all swords theoretically be constructed in one piece? Isn't it just a bad sword when the tang is just welded?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 5, 2014 0:07:00 GMT
What Hanwei means is that the guard and pommel are part of the same piece of steel as blade and tang. Not just tang and blade forged from the single piece of steel, but also the guard and pommel. (They made their Trondheim viking sword the same way.) The only extra thing, other than that one piece of steel, is the grip covering.
The good side is that the guard and pommel will never loosen. The bad side is that the grip can be heavier than it should be, and it's harder to make changes (like changing guard or pommel, changing the length of the grip).
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Nov 7, 2014 20:31:07 GMT
I really like the concept of the Qi Jian because having a solid one piece of steel for blade and hilt is just... very cool. Was reading the story about this sword and its musical qualities/excellent harmonics. The Zombie Slayer is another sword that is one piece steel forged so personally I would love to see more quality 1 piece steel Jians like this out there.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 7, 2014 22:34:11 GMT
One piece except for grip wrap is common (but not universal) on bronze jian. An advantage of casting vs forging.
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Post by AlvaroWang on Nov 7, 2014 22:41:53 GMT
Could you explain some more on the differences and advantages/disadvantages of casting/forging?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 7, 2014 23:42:36 GMT
Casting can be quicker (though keep in mind the time taken to make a master and a mold). It lets you make complex shapes that can be very hard to forge.
Forging doesn't need as high temperatures. To cast in steel, you need to be able to melt steel. To make steel stuff by forging, you never need to reach such high temperatures (not even to make the steel in the first place).
If forging bronze, you have problems with work-hardening - you need to keep stopping to anneal it. If you want things, like helmets (or many other things with thin sheet/plate) that are hard to cast, then you forge. But if it's castable, casting is easier.
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Post by AlvaroWang on Nov 10, 2014 2:33:40 GMT
Now this is interesting. If casting is actually better, isn't it better to cast all other swords? Or the higher temperature needed is prohibitive?
It would make the sword making process much quicker. Just putting molten steel at the molds
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 10, 2014 3:30:20 GMT
The Chinese were casting iron (using cast iron as is, and steel and low-carbon iron produced by decarburising cast iron) during the Han dynasty. It is quicker and cheaper than forging, and was common for agricultural tools.
But we don't see cast steel swords (at least, not many) from China. Why? It isn't due to any lack of casting technology, since bronze casting technology was very well developed, and tools were made by casting iron/steel (and weapons, too, such as Ming cannon). I can think of three possible reasons:
1. The standard method for making Chinese swords was sanmei ("three plate"), where a middle layer of high carbon steel is sandwiched between two layers of iron. This gives differential hardening. This would be difficult to do by casting. (The Chinese did cast the equivalent in bronze, using high tin bronze for the edge, and a medium tin bronze for the body.)
2. Iron is harder to cast well than bronze. Since sword blades are wide and thin, this will be more of a problem with swords than with other objects.
3. Very high carbon steels (e.g., about 1.5% carbon, such as seen in many crucible steels and Chinese steels made by decarburising cast iron) need to be worked at red heat to break up cementite (a carbon-iron compound), so that it forms microscopic balls rather than big complexes (which would make the steel very brittle). This needs forging. So forging lets you use higher carbon content steels and avoid excessive brittleness.
In most of the world, for much of the time over which swords were made, furnaces didn't get hot enough to melt iron/steel (. So the casting versus forging was a non-issue. But it should be considered in the Chinese case.
The melting point for iron/steel/cast iron varies from about 1150C for cast iron, through to about 1550C for iron, with steels at about 1400-1500C, depending on carbon content. But you need to have it hotter than that to cast things, so about 1500-1700C is needed to cast steel. About 1000C-1200C is enough for bronze casting.
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on Nov 10, 2014 7:32:52 GMT
There is one smith in TW, who does casted swords. In cooperation with an MIT materialogist, they ground up different steels microscopically fine, and add up to 12 secret other metals, melt the whole thing and cast plates. These are heated up to 2000 C, then cooled down to below minus 180 C, put under very high pressure. With laser cutters the shape is formed, before the sword gets polished. The steel reached HRC 62, is very flexible. The only drawback: All Chinese want to do all work on one sword, the sccabard and furniture are not that great, also the final sharpening could be better. (I like Japanese way, where different masters work on one sword.)
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 10, 2014 10:00:53 GMT
Hmm. No need to grind up microscopically fine if it gets heated to 2000C. However, if it's heated to 2000F, then it sounds like fairly standard procedure for powder steel (where the powder is sintered - heated to below melting point, and pressed together to fuse the powder into a solid), where high pressure is normal.
If the shape is laser cut, then it isn't a cast sword. That's just stock removal using a laser. The steel that goes into any stock removal sword has been cast (when the steel was made) and forged (when it was rolled into flat stock), but we don't call them cast or forged, because they're not cast to the shape of the final sword or forged to shape.
Any links to stuff on www about this smith?
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on Nov 10, 2014 13:20:53 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 10, 2014 20:54:46 GMT
Normal stock removal by grinding. But does sound like he starts with fancy modern steels. (He's not the only one - Hanwei does powder steel swords, as do others.)
But there's some serious nonsense there: "Each day the swordsmith needs to rub the sword with a cloth. This generates heat, and the molecular structure of the steel changes when it becomes hot after wiping. Two to three years of wiping every day and the structure of the steel becomes stable. [...] The only way to get rid of the pores is to rub the steel until it gets hot, forcing the slight amount of aluminum in it to melt. Since aluminum has a low melting point, it will come to the surface and melt, blocking the pores. It takes years to fully achieve this."
No, you won't melt aluminium by rubbing it with a cloth.
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on Nov 11, 2014 0:32:38 GMT
Surely not, but the "nourishing of the sword", Yangjian 養劍, does have tradition and works wonders, as of my own experience. The longer I did the cleaning (after green bamboo cutting) of sap, rubbing warm and oiling, the less oxidation did happen, on different blades. The smith all in all is suspect, dreaming his magical sword and all, but his steel is really good, hard to get razor sharp, but holding the edge very good. And the flexibility at 62 HRC is astonishing, also the stabbing ability (they did a test stabbing thru car doors).
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