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Post by randomnobody on Oct 31, 2014 19:37:56 GMT
Nah, you can pick up a decent antique katana for $3-5,000 US, sometimes less, often much more. I've seen as many going over ten thousand as under three thousand. The difference is usually just provenance. Whether it's signed, papered, to whom it's attributed, what school, etc. Mumei tends to go cheap, unless it's with shinsa papers and full, unblemished koshirae.
I personally prefer collecting wakizashi as for starters, they tend to be more available. They also tend to be less expensive than katana (and especially tachi) and come in a much wider variety of sizes and shapes. One would be hard-pressed to find hira-zukuri, unokubi-zukuri, or moroha-zukuri in antique katana, but they're pretty easy to find (less so moroha) in wakizashi. Likewise tanto, but many of those run comparably to katana in price.
I have two antique wakizashi, myself. Both mumei, both in bad polish, one in complete koshirae in "decent" condition, one a bare blade in a mismatched saya; one likely 2-300 years old, the other potentially up to seven hundred or more years old. I've been browsing quite a significant number of Edo era stuffs below $4k US and a few Muromachi around the same price. My most expensive wak cost me $1800, but I stretched it out over a six-month period, which the shop was willing to hold it for me. $300/mo for six months is a lot easier to afford than $1800 all at once.
As for national treasures, that's a very high level we're talking about, not just any sword will fall into this range. It would have to be by a very famous smith or bear proof of being owned by a very famous person in Japanese history. For instance, if I bought some random rust bucket of a mumei tanto off some guy on eBay, had it polished and sent for shinsa, and it was attributed to the first Masamune...Japan might want to have a word with me about whether I can keep it, but thousands of swords of significant value sit in private collections and Japan is pretty okay with that.
As for the WW2 pieces, they're a much broader category than just that. Wartime-manufactured blades could be really good, made by a renowned smith of the era, and be very valuable, or they could be later-period machined blades with zero redeeming attributes. Many of the swords that saw service in the war were ancestral blades, passed down over several generations, mounted up in the army's pattern for uniform sake, and could be extremely valuable, important blades...or not.
Most blades fall somewhere in the lower-middle range, where they're nice swords, not particularly amazing or valuable, but adequately representative of the styles and methods of the time they were made. Most folk are content to own, study, and pass along these pieces on their way up the ladder to the much more precious stuff. I'm at that point, except I have a hard time letting go of things once I get them...so anything I acquire will likely be mine for a very long time. :oops:
Edited for phone mistakes. "Smartphone," sure.
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Post by Jeffrey Ching on Oct 31, 2014 19:44:27 GMT
Psycho V Sword porn addicts unite! :lol: Robert in CaliforniaA signature is nice for some but the steel and koshirae tell the most intriguing story. Wait till you see the polished blade, I just received an update from the polisher :shock: I'm totally for a section that allows for 'blogging' about your experience in acquiring this item. Got some stories to tell @neo_one Actually Nihonto translates as "Japanese sword" but there are some side rules that apply for being classified as true Nihonto (Tamahagane, official sword smith and folded). As some WW2 pieces are made with industrial steel (some oil quenched), they are often disregarded by Nihonto collectors. For a starting collector they may be interesting but note that they do not show the same details as traditionally made nihonto. Now about the nihonto on the market, there are really tens of thousands Nihonto still available for sale. Freshly made Nihonto known as Shinsakuto (new made sword) to Shinshinto period and all the way back to Kamakura period. Swords older than that are often in hands of museums or private collectors. A nihonto sword also doesn't have to cost a lot since the age, maker and current state and mounting are all relevant to its value. A cheap tanto without signature can sometimes be bought for only a few hundred dollars. However that will most likely be full of rust and possible with some (age-related) unrepairable damages (which we refer to as kizu). The restoration of Japanese sword blades is done by togishi (polishers). Other craftsmen are specialized in making sword mountings, holding scabbards, handle wrapping and sword furniture making/restoration. Craftsmen of the Japanese sword often form a close community as we are part of the same preservation eco-system. Besides being sword fetishists ourselves it's our task to make sure that knowledge and material aren't lost. [Attenborough-mode] These magnificent animals often seek equally spirited kinsmen and hurdle together and communicate about swords whenever they can :lol: [/Attenborough-mode]
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Oct 31, 2014 20:09:34 GMT
nope, they don't have to be worth tens of thousands of dollars/pounds. I have a mumei Shinto katana I bought off of a guy from Australia last year - paid less than $2,000 USD including appraisal/provenance at the NTHK-NPO 2014 Florida Shinsa. Only those considered "Important Cultural Property" or "National Treasures" have to stay in Japan, other true nihonto don't have to go back to Japan though. One thing: if you do buy one and send it to shinsa or to get work done in Japan, you MUST get an export certificate from the Japanese gov't or else it will not be allowed to leave the country. "Nihontô can be freely imported into, and exported from Japan if all procedures are carried out according to the law. However, there is one notable exception: In 1950 the Bunkzai-hogo-hô took effect in which important artwork of exemplary artistic and historic significance can be designated as Jûyô-bunkazai ("important cultural property") and Kokuhô ("national treasure"). At present ca. 900 swords are designated Jûyô-bunkazai, and out of those 122 are Kokuhô. Although anybody - including non-Japanese - can own such an item, it has to remain in Japan under penalty of law. Well established, outstanding master smiths may become Jûyô-mukei-bunkazai-hojisha (important intangible cultural property holder), commonly called Ningen-kokuhô (living national treasure). Exporting swords from Japan Swords for export must be submitted to the Bunka-chô-bijutsu-kôgei-ka (Art and Craft Section of the Cultural Agency). The Tôrokushô is handed in, and an export permit (Kobijutsuhin-yushutsu-kansa-shômei) is issued in return. This export permit is valid for one month; within that time all customs and export procedures have to be completed or otherwise the permit becomes void. With this permit it is possible to either send the sword via mail/private carrier abroad, or to personally carry it through customs when leaving Japan. The latter is in most cases not possible for those who just visit Japan since issuing usually takes at least two weeks. In this case the dealer/seller has to apply for the export permit." www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16799-FAQ-Japanese-sword-lawsHere's a few pictures of my Shinto nihonto
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 20:28:08 GMT
Very informative reading.
While I may or may not exaggerate the price. I'm basing this for example, a national treasue nihonto and cost of a full restoration polish in Japan, who is willing to also take that risk and not destory the blade during polishing.
Im unsure of the process of restoring the original fittings the sword may have had as well, but I can imagine they would cost quite a lot of money as well.
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Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
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Post by Klaver on Oct 31, 2014 20:43:56 GMT
Already a lot of information said and done, looks like that section is already opened. If you do not like to know anything about Nihonto just avoid that section, do not see any problems with that.
But go back to the beer analogy, if you only like beer, just drink beer. If you like to take a good old whisky once in a while, go for it. I like beer and whisky, you see. It does not have to bite each other :mrgreen:
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Oct 31, 2014 20:58:38 GMT
I think it faces the same difficulties as other antique & custom sword reviews.
We have the Japanese swords section for discussion about Japanese swords, I'm not sure if specific antique section is needed? It's very easy to find price references online but you must always consider that swords are one of a kind items, and there are many factors that affect on the price. Discussion is always good and not all the stuff discussed need to be correct in my opinion. I just feel that having information (be it correct or false) to backup your sayings creates credibility.
For example I could say that I believe that the tanto Jeffrey posted would be late Muromachi Mino blade. That would be just a novice guess, and based on the condition I couldn't guess closer than that. That guess of mine I would base on the shape & nakago.
Kashu Kagemitsu is nothing to be shy about. The reason why I would think it to be Muromachi era Kagemitsu is because it's signed katana mei. If it would be tachi mei, there would be a much higher possibility of an earlier Kagemitsu. 3rd gen Kashu Kagemitsu is good smith, chu-jo-saku in Fujishiro and he worked roughly around c.1450-1470. There are 5 generations listed in Seskos Index.
The unfortunate thing that is see with NBTHK papers is the lack of information. They will invoke much more research on the collectors part, as they do not give additional information. Personally I'm becoming bigger fan of NTHK papers, but NBTHK papers are perhaps preferable to market. Like the blade that Jeffrey described, it's just Kashu Kagemitsu in the papers, and they don't specify which generation. I've had to do lot of research when I've tried to determine generation of Soshu Tsunahiro of various pieces, and I've found it to be much too challenging for me... Of course you learn stuff by doing your own research but still it hardly compares to NBTHK information.
I don't think there is anything bad in novice/amateur appraisal guesses, as you'll just treat them as such. For example all my own guesses are novice guesses, and they should be treated as such. We should be able to guess and discuss as we like, because I think being wrong is one of the best ways to learn.
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Post by Robert in California on Oct 31, 2014 21:05:26 GMT
Beautiful blade on that Shinto, LGM! Like that koshirae too! Got to admit though, that if wishes could be had, I'd wish the craftsmen who feel comfortable to drill new mekugiana (holes) in that nakago wherever they please would not do that. Why can't they use the old holes? I would guess because in a change of tsuka dimensions they must have had some custom on placement of mekugi...ie. make the tsuka longer or shorter, the mekugi hole placement changes? RinC p.s. Good point...in a nihonto review, if there is a story in how one came to have the sword, do tell!
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Oct 31, 2014 21:55:11 GMT
Thanks RinC... it's my prized possession. The only thing is that the tsuka is pretty badly cracked, but it did come with a new(ish) tsuka wrapped in laquered leather, so there's that. I'll eventually send the tsuka off to restore it, but no definite plans yet - I had asked Josh (AKA Frankthebunny) for his input, but couldn't send it off to him because of monetary setbacks.
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Post by Jeffrey Ching on Nov 1, 2014 13:55:37 GMT
@jussie Actually the tanto is not the Kashu ju Kagemitsu ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) That's just a cheap thing I bought of ebay. Sending it to the polisher was a risk but because the geometry was yamato-den like (high shinogi, really thin mune) I just wanted to save this sword and restore it the best I can. The saya is now being prepped for urushi restoration and I'm deciding which fuchigashira and sayajiri I will use. Anyway, regardless of the origins or date of this dagger, I'm just happy that the polisher was able to revive it. Check out the jihada on this baby :shock: So it's shobu zukuri, high shinogi, nagasa of 23 cm and strong gunome hamon. Masame with mokume mixed hada. ![](http://www.thesamuraiworkshop.com/public/sbg-forum/jihada-tanto.jpg) ![](http://www.thesamuraiworkshop.com/public/sbg-forum/tanto-unokubi-kissaki.jpg)
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Post by Aurélien on Nov 1, 2014 15:30:51 GMT
This shobu looks like... an unokubi. Very thin mune and matsuba kissaki. Anyway, this tanto has indeed a beautiful jihada! Congrats Jeffrey! I'm jealous
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Nov 1, 2014 15:35:58 GMT
I know, the Kagemitsu is the one with the stunning floral koshirae. As for the tanto, I just guessed Mino. Now after seeing the polished pic, if the masame is mostly at shinogi & shinogiji I think it could be something like sue-Seki. Again there is a very high chance that my novice guesses are totally wrong, but it's just fun to guess. The more pics there are the more educated guess you can make in online kantei. Of course our guesses should not be valued as highly as guesses by more experienced ones. I think same thing can be applied to nihonto in this forum as to any other sword, everyone should be able to discuss and voice their opinion on them. I think it's great that in here anyone can pick up a sword and voice their opinions about it (be it review or just few lines of text). That's part of the fun of this forum.
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Post by whitefeathers on Nov 1, 2014 20:20:59 GMT
I also am for a show and tell aka sword porn section
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 1, 2014 22:35:37 GMT
Jeffrey, what a tanto! Unusual and beautifully shaped and polished! Arouses lust..! Belongs in the new "Antique Swords" section! That and the Shinto of LGM. After all, it is ok to have a "museum of fine art". RinC
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