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Post by Robert in California on Oct 30, 2014 18:41:11 GMT
Hi folks,
Should the SBG sword reviews section have a category for actual Japanese-made swords (nihontos)? Why? I have noticed how some SBG members will start with budget swords, then progress to high grade production swords and some finally buy antique Japanese swords. What about put a "Nihonto" category in the Sword Reviews section? Buying expensive (well, they are all expensive) nihontos merit educational reviews probably more than "pristine, new" production swords.
Thanks, RinC
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Post by randomnobody on Oct 30, 2014 19:06:57 GMT
I dunno, considering a significant aspect of the review format here is cutting performance, I highly doubt anybody owning antique anything, nihonto or otherwise, would be very interested or particularly obliged to try cutting common targets with it. This would, arguably, remove what could be called the most crucial part of the review format.
Then there's the idea that reviews are only good for products that are available for others to buy, and nihonto is kind of hard to place in that category. Sure, if we can nail down school/smith we might say a given blade is representative of that school/smith and as such we can or cannot recommend (by whatever qualifiers) other blades from the same school/smith, but it's hardly the same as recommending (or not, as the case may be) a production model. Nobody will be apt to read a nihonto review and think, "this school/smith looks like good stuff; I'm going to go buy the same sword from the same school/smith."
I think it's definitely a good idea to open up a section devoted to "Show and Tell" for antiques, for those interested, possibly with a list of recommended dealers for the various nationalities and/or time periods (for instance, Shop X is a great place to find good deals on American Civil War patterns, or Shop Y has a lot of high-level nihonto to drool over) but reviews as such are best left to current production models, I think.
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Post by Jeffrey Ching on Oct 30, 2014 20:05:33 GMT
I don't think reviewing antiques has any practical use besides eyecandy. Even if you would get a sword in the same geometry as the reviewed item, the state, koshirae and polish of the blade determine the quality of the art piece.
Reviewing its cutting ability would only result in me flying over and slapping you around :lol:
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Oct 30, 2014 20:25:38 GMT
This... This made me laugh. :lol:
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Greg E
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Post by Greg E on Oct 30, 2014 21:20:56 GMT
I think having a Nihonto and Antique section would be great. Mostly sword porn but, having an idea of prices and actual original swords to compare our production stuff against would be educational. And to give members who 'graduate' from low end stuff a place to show off their pieces and keep them coming back to SBG.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Oct 30, 2014 21:54:57 GMT
I agree - having one antique nihonto myself, I would like to see other comparisons from members here seeing as we really are a nice (an not pretentious) group of individuals compared to some other forums I've joined over the years. And NO cutting with it unless it's a shinsakuto sword please.
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Post by randomnobody on Oct 30, 2014 22:17:48 GMT
I hadn't even thought about shinsakuto...but then again, how many here are likely to buy one? Aside from the sheer cost, the waiting list is horrific. Nonetheless, if one of our, er, better-off members happened to commission and acquire one, I'd not mind seeing them review it up, SBG-style. If they were willing, of course. :geek:
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Post by Robert in California on Oct 30, 2014 22:55:45 GMT
When I went to the Smithsonian Museum and viewed their Nihonto collection of priceless swords, I could not understand why they did not let me try them out. After all, I had brought my own pool noodles and water bottles. Really wanted to see how that Hiromitsu would cut. :-)
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Post by Robert in California on Oct 30, 2014 23:06:32 GMT
In a more serious note, consider: 1. We already have a members' collection site to show off our own stuff..especially after we have customized it. 2. True, a Nihonto Review section would not be for swords available like production swords are available. But I still can see a couple uses: a. Educational b. I have noticed some SBG folks have bought nihontos and then later sell them. A good nihonto review on SBG would both be educational and a way if later the sword was put up for sale, potential buyers could get more than the usual amount of info about the nihonto being offered. c. And finally, selling nihontos in more detail might help disspell the myth of them being so much superior to high end production swords. In a nihonto, blade activity such as ashi, yo, utsuri, sunogashi, kensugi, etc can be found on good blades...but the dirty little secret about nihonto is that many of them lack much of anything but some hada (tamagahane steel) and a hamon pretty much if not completely devoid of activity.
(now I duck the thrown vegetables, fruit and eggs...but 30 years ago, us sword students all used nihonto...finding one in the more affordable price ranges rarely found on with activity in the hamon)...and they were just as fragile, as a prodcution blade...they would bend, rust, chip...really needed to be treated very carefully.
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Post by William Swiger on Oct 31, 2014 5:01:33 GMT
You can review any sword you like in the review section. I could make a generic category for antique.
Any antique swords to include Medieval, Asian, Sabres or whatever.
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slav
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Post by slav on Oct 31, 2014 8:01:22 GMT
Sure, I would love a section for Nihonto. Especially since SBG is pretty much the new SFI. But I wouldn't exactly call it a review section...more like "show off and discuss".
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Klaver
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Post by Klaver on Oct 31, 2014 8:16:09 GMT
I personally think reviews and dressed up I would say kantei or appraisal will upgrade the level of knowledge. With some amazement I read people think Hataraki or activity is just for fun of the smith, in ancient times it means your blade is forged well, has a good polish and the smith fully dominates the entire steel and with looking at those amazing refined steel activity’s you can be sure you can stand behind your sword in a life and dead situation (in the past). I will not fall into the difference between Chinese and Japanese tamahagane but your have some mayor differences, but this mean you have to go deeper into the Japanese swords with your knowledge. Some forges (for example Huanuo, Hanwei) are really doing a good job but in general they are lightyears away from each other. I agree with the idea people are moving upwards to the most available high end Japanese swords aka Nihonto, in matter of fact you can not go any further, you will fall of the planet :lol: Lately I have written an article on a dutch forum about differences between modern production blades and Nihonto, so I must say I am really into this. Personally I think, if you wanna buy once a Nihonto it will help you to avoid a bad buy more or less, if you are buying a sword without a certificate from NBTHK or other organisation. Those appraisals are also works of human, but that’s an other discussion. You can go deeper into oshigata, used by appraisers to record all the uniques metallurgical activities in the steel. It will educate more, but not everyone is waiting for this, some people who only has a scope on selling more modern production will not be enthusiastic, I guess. I think when you are starting a collection you will be more interested in different schools/smiths and I do think you just do not have to own a piece to enjoy those amazing pieces of Japanese art. You will be amazed more and more, I think. I would say, go for it
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Oct 31, 2014 8:52:41 GMT
Ya! Come at me bro!!
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Post by Jeffrey Ching on Oct 31, 2014 9:45:50 GMT
Don't make make me take out my dagger yo... once it's back from the polisher... and I finished the koshirae on this one. Can we set a date in a few months? :lol: Without kidding around: the biggest problem with Nihonto reviews is that all is subjective and heavily depends on the knowledge and honesty of the reviewer. Get Paul Martin or Mike Yamasaki to do a kantei/review on a blade and I'll be the first to throw karma at them as if it was Halloween ... The biggest problem with online information is that many will consider that a truth without doing their own research. The huge demand and offerings for fake gunto are proof of that. People want to believe they hit the jackpot with their purchase. Some may be aware of this but there are in fact fake NBTHK papers floating around and it's a matter of time before Chinese forges start producing fake Nihonto that actually looks good. On a daily basis, gimei (fake signature swords) are sold as genuine and how often do you see a post of a newbie that bought a fake gunto? I can spot a fake from miles away but can I distinguish a high quality gimei from a sword with authentic signature? Japanese appraisal boards have four guys with each 50 years of experience bowing over those issues. Nope, not that arrogant. Don't be that guy that talks out of his ass, trying to romanticize their precious. I get weekly emails of people who believe they hit the jackpot with a fake gunto or worse.. some weird rusty sword-like thing made in Thailand. Again, people want to believe and even I am guilty as charged to those romantic thoughts. I do enjoy unsigned antiques when healthy, good balance, nice detail or exquisite geometry. However, every time I send a blade to the polisher for a restoration, a part of me hopes that it's secretly a gem. Due time and experience I know that this is a chance of one in a million but still, everybody wants to win. Having people with not enough experience write about their Nihonto, will do only one thing: fill the board with unverified information. I'm currently in a situation that I think will be an excellent example: Working on a new Kamakura/muromachi o-suriage sword that's simply signed 景光 Kagemitsu. Now would I not have gotten the NBTHK papers I could have thought this sword was in fact made by Bizen Kagemitsu, which was the son of the founder of Bizen Osafune School and who forged swords for Oda Nobunaga's daddy Rare, beautiful and above all, expensive. However, the katana mei cannot give a clear answer in this case and I'll tell you why. Surely, the boy/treasure hunter in me wants to believe this is a Bizen Kagemitsu. The sword is in fact not made by him but by a different Kagemitsu from Kaga province, a totally different lineage (sanekage) and worth much less that a genuine Bizen Kagemitsu. A crazy coincidence is that both Kagemitsu smiths made similar sugata, jihada and hamon. Tricky stuff. Without those NBTHK papers I suspect that my review would not be very factual or correct. Would yours be? So back on OP's question: Study yes, discussion yes. Amateur appraisals: big no. :ugeek:
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Oct 31, 2014 11:51:59 GMT
I completely concur with the above statements - we (as a whole) have not undergone the many, many years of studying thousands of nihonto in order to train ourselves in the subtleties invovling nihonto... the shinsa (judging) is and should be relegated to the people who have literally tons of experience dealing with these treasures, not just a random forum member who has maybe one or even 100 nihonto in their collections. Therefore, an appraisal from us would be not only useless to most, but like Jeffrey stated above, would also lead to uncertainty in a beginning collector. Good for discussion, but not for appraisals.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Oct 31, 2014 13:53:07 GMT
One thing to remember, one of the reasons for this forum was to help entry level sword collectors get in for about 300.00 or less. Nihonto are well outside that price point (to my understanding at least). I'm all for the extra section, I just think folks sharing real world prices will help as well. I know I still cry about what i've paid for Albion's, then William pm'd me what he paid for a custom, and when I woke up from the dead faint...I was stunned.
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Post by dave lorrez on Oct 31, 2014 14:26:13 GMT
I'm in with Jeffrey (and some others) on this.. a show & tell section absolutely but i'm not a fan of the review idea because as said : 1. Most of us (me included) don't have the proper knowledge (not even close...) to write a proper and more or less accurate review based on historical facts/research/knowledge. 2. Once you start to digg deep into that , it becomes very technical and probably boring (yes , i just said that..) to most of the readers here. 3. There's already enough BS and or misconceptions on the internet [/list:u]
I'm voting for a 'Nihonto Sword Porn' section
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Post by Robert in California on Oct 31, 2014 15:46:48 GMT
"You can review any sword you like in the review section. I could make a generic category for antique. Any antique swords to include Medieval, Asian, Sabres or whatever." (W.Swiger) ==================================================== Thank you Mr. Swiger! For us production sword owners, to also see the "real" things, would be like "Continuing Education".
And also show folks that production blades are not all that inferior to the antique stuff...maybe a production blade is nothing a collector of "real" (antique) swords would want, but for a sword student, whether serious or just an occasional backyard cutter, a production sword is ideal for serious use.
Thanks!
Go ahead and create a "Antique Sword Reviews" section. I will plan reviews of my two nihontos....in time...after the Huawei reviews I need to do...
RinC
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Post by Robert in California on Oct 31, 2014 16:01:07 GMT
"Reviewing its cutting ability would only result in me flying over and slapping you around ." =============================================================== Um, so....don't cut the bridk with the nihonto? :-) btw nice blade Jeffrey! Looks at that blade activity! (rust/scratches/scuffing/staining... :-) ) =============================================================== As for doing reviews of antique swords/nihonto...I would suggest the goal is to show, with more photos than text, what we have...give dimensions and other measurements, give our opinions and links to any references we have, and in general be open to spirited discussion. (my nihonto are mumei...so how can I spend a lot of text telling folks who made it? All I can do is describe the sword with pics and text and open it up to SBG thoughts and observations....probably would be a win-win as there are SBG folks who are pretty sharp on this stuff). RinC
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 19:02:44 GMT
I have to ask though. Wouldnt a true nihonto be hundreds of years old and would cost 10's of thousands of pounds? No average Joe here is going to have one of those. Plus if you did, Japan would steal it from you and consider it a national treasure.
Arnt the majority of nihontos we are talking about here WW2 pieces and not that good quality to begin with?
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