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Post by Anankai on Sept 28, 2014 20:19:45 GMT
I've been trying to find a place to buy this type of Japanese sword with no luck. As you might know, this style of sword predates katana and tachi. I find it very aesthetically pleasing, with the hamon surrounding the blade. But it doesn't seem to be a very popular type of sword, even though it's very similar to a Chinese Jian. Have someone seen this type of sword in sale somewhere? Here's an example of a Ken sword with Suguha hamon, thought to be from Sue Tegai school, made in 15th century: Attachments:
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Post by Anankai on Sept 28, 2014 20:22:35 GMT
Oops! Sorry for the huge pic... thought it was supposed to be automatically resized.... How one can make a thumbnail??
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 28, 2014 20:32:52 GMT
Best way to thumbnail is to save the file to your computer and attach it to the post, rather than embed a link between the img tags.
Can't say where to find a decent ken, though. The picture you posted strikes me more of a huge oomi yari with shortened nakago more than ken, but really what's the difference? :x
Still can't think of anywhere to get on in exactly this style, most on the market are just differentially-hardened jian in katana-style koshirae...
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Post by Anankai on Sept 28, 2014 20:35:19 GMT
Ok thanks random! Will try to do that...
Edit: Got it! Works like a charm! Thanks for the tip!
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 28, 2014 20:50:07 GMT
Oh, I didn't realize it was a proper photo; I figured it was just the oshigata. :shock: That's a pretty thing, but now it looks even more like an oomi yari with shortened nakago, which would ultimately become a ken/tsurugi as it's certainly not a tachi/katana/uchigatana/curved-single-edged-sword-thing. Either way, can't say they exist as such in the production realm.  |
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Post by Anankai on Sept 28, 2014 21:41:07 GMT
Well, the blade is longer and the nakago is shorter, which makes it more a sword than a spear, doesn't it?  |
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 28, 2014 22:10:07 GMT
Or does it? Loads of old spears are turned into swords and daggers in later years, they aren't spears anymore after. :x This particular example, though, I don't know.  |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 28, 2014 22:17:14 GMT
The difference would be the thickness and width of the tang. I'd expect a very long spear head to be flattened triangular section, with a deep fuller. Sluggish spears kill users - keep that weight down! On this, the base of the blade is in a yari style, and the tang does look yari-like (but short). I'd say "spear". Of course, it can be converted and mounted as a sword, but it's still a spear blade.
Some discussion of ken, and photo of ken tang. All "user" ken I've seen, other than spearheads mounted as daggers, have habaki. Don't know about fancy ceremonial/religious mounts.
Huawei had a nice looking ken.
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Post by frankthebunny on Sept 28, 2014 22:17:39 GMT
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Post by Anankai on Sept 29, 2014 2:55:57 GMT
Well I guess you will have to tell AoiJapan that they were wrong then. It was a spear and they never even realized it... Damned those so called experts....
From AoiJapan:
"Ken in Shirasaya, with Koshirae (NBTHK Hozon Paper)
Signature : Mumei attributed as Sue Tegai school.
The blade was polished.
Habaki : Copper single habaki.
Blade length : 62.72 cm or 26.66 inches.
Mekugi : 1
Width at the hamachi : 3.05 cm or 1.2 inches.
Kasane : 0.94 cm or 0.37 inches.
Era : Early Muromachi period.
Shape : It is 62.72cm long ken sword.
Ther eis bonji letter engraved at the top of the sword.
Jitetsu : Itame hada well grained with jinie attahced. It is clear and beautiful jigane.
Hamon : Consisted in nie structure, it is deep nioiguchi suguha with ashi attached.
Special feature : The making of Ken sword is said to be started from ancient time at the shirine buddest area and was used in rituals. This piece has a bonji letters engraved the thse tip of the blade and it was long preserved inside the shrine and the temple. It is great condition beautiful jigane with much activities in the hamon."
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 29, 2014 3:44:35 GMT
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Post by Anankai on Sept 29, 2014 4:26:59 GMT
Here's the original page webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=ca I know there's something strange about this straight tang, but at 62.72 cm, this blade is too long imo to have been a spearhead. Anyhow, thanks to Josh I found out that Huawei are able to custom make Ken type sword, which is awesome! |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 29, 2014 7:48:10 GMT
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 29, 2014 8:25:30 GMT
Spears for huge back in the day, because everything good huge back then. For a long time, the prevailing school of thought in weaponry was "bigger is better" and we see swords and spears alike that were absolutely ridiculous to our current line if thought that prior actually used once upon a time. Uses successfully? Well, we don't really know, but we can imagine such a large weapon would surely have made an impressive to m won't m trophy, worth keeping around, which may well be why we have this one surviving example and so many others...
A quick search via Google for oomi yari turns up several greater than 20 inches, 24a recurring number even, but as already said, most seem to be the more common sankaku (three-sided) shape. The only name I can seem to find for the diamond profile is "ryo-shinogi," which I can only hazard a guess means "both ridged" ie diamond profile. I'm sure I've seen another word used...
Anyway, I was going to suggest Hauwei as well for the best bet on ken swords from a modern maker, but wasn't sure if the yari-like base was something that was desired in a repro. It would be interesting, certainly, but I'm not sure where Hauwei stands on yari, whether they'd be able to make one so long and then mount it as a sword... Or would definitively be another huge score for them if they did pull it off.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Sept 29, 2014 21:16:33 GMT
I'm with Random and Timo that the sword Aoi-art sold was originally yari shortened to sword use. You can see the kerakubi even though it has been altered to allow habaki to be used.
A friend in our nihonto group has a huge yari. I think the blade is somewhere around 80-100 cm and in koshirae I think it might be close to 3,5 m total length. I got the chance to handle it while we were trying to figure out the mei. It would be fearsome weapon in the battlefield. But a weapon like that would require a skilled user as wielding it is not an easy feat.
I believe the longest yari that has survived to the modern era is the legendary Otegine, which was one of three famous spears in Japan. It was made by Yoshisuke (Shimada school) and has blade length of 139,4 cm.
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,353 
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Post by Greg E on Sept 29, 2014 21:27:38 GMT
Hmmm, they might be able to do a decent yari blade to have pole mounted here in the States. Might have to think on this.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 29, 2014 21:33:36 GMT
I've seen the comment (IIRC, 17th century or so) that the main function of the really long blades on spears is to cause fear. They don't stab any better than short ones, but terrify more effectively! One practical benefit is that it's much harder for the opponent to grab the haft. The other is that you have more edge to cut with, so you don't need as much accuracy in cutting. The downside is the weight.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 29, 2014 23:04:07 GMT
Whenever I think of huge spears I think of the old formations of...was it the Romans or Spartans? The guys up front would have normal-sized spears, as the frontlines would host more direct combat, and the first line or two behind them would have spears sometimes twice as long, to reach around the first few rows and poke at the others guys while basically hiding behind the rows ahead of oneself. I don't know if Japanese infantry ever used such tactics, but I wouldn't be surprised if some part of them decided their spears just weren't reaching far enough... As for weight, yeah, I can imagine it'd be tough (to put it lightly) to hold out a spear that big for a long time, never mind swing it about. The occasional thrust, sure, but anything else...my arms are already tired thinking about it.  I do wonder if Hauwei or another forge might be able to make a huge yari blade that could be mounted as a ken-style sword...that would be very neat to see. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 30, 2014 0:37:56 GMT
The really long heads were usually on fairly short hafts. The really long hafted yari (basically, Japanese pikes) usually had relatively small heads. Cavalry yari (lances) usually had fairly short heads, too. Equilateral triangular, square, or thick diamond section were common for cavalry yari - armour-piercing stoutness, sacrificing cutting ability because you're not going to be doing much cutting because you're holding it one-handed. Knutsen's books are the best English-language source of Japanese spears and other polearms: www.amazon.com/Japanese-polearms ... 0007IZ5KA/ www.amazon.com/Japanese-Spears-P ... 1901903567 The new one is sort-of a new edition of the old one, but the difference between the two books is large, and IMO it's worth having both if you're into Japanese polearms. |
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Sept 30, 2014 0:47:19 GMT
looks like an oakshotte type X viking sword lol
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