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Post by Kirin on Sept 22, 2014 22:45:50 GMT
To SBG Sword Forum, Like many potential sword buyers, I am interested in buying/saving up for a quality katana. However, there does not seem to be many threads on higher end sword choices ranging from $1800 - $7500. I am looking to use the katana as a Japanese Sword Art practitioner. I am interested in finding out more information regarding the pros and cons of getting a custom made Nihontou from a newer smith (Made in Japan with appropriate papers), an American smith such as Barrett or Clark, and top of the line custom blades such as with Martialartswords (MAS). My previous thread addressed JSA katana choices at the lower end of the budget spectrum: /thread/41686. For Nihontou, I was able to gain information from the past thread here: /thread/41583. From asking about a price quote from SwordStore.com, a custom made Nihonto will cost me roughly about the mid $7000 range. When browsing antique nihonto from www.aoijapan.com/japanesesword/masterpiece, I also spot potential purchases at around 250,000 yen (~$2500). I do know that older swords would not be really used for tameshigiri much but there may be some kata usage out of them. On the other hand, I have heard many good things about L6 Bainite swords and had been looking at the price range of the American Smiths which can start from around $4000. To further complicate matters, there is MAS which sells L6 custom katana at starting at $1800. They also offer the custom sword in a more traditional design compared to the competition design (More width and steep angling of the blade). From the advice I have received from my sensei, competition style cutters with very thin blades and steels that are too hard/brittle are not recommended due to the danger of breaking. Tatami and bamboo should be a proper target. Two mekugi is generally required. Any advice or feedback regarding the katana choices would be much appreciated. Special thanks for those that already had provided advice on the lower budget JSA choices. Sincerely, -K
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Sept 22, 2014 23:00:16 GMT
You might want to check this great deal fellow forumite is offering: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=23072If you commission a newly made sword to your specs you'll have to pay a premium. If you are willing to buy a second hand sword then you will save a lot of money. There are lots of potential options in the c. 400k Yen range. I would personally choose Japanese smith over smith of other nationality. And if I would be ordering a new sword I think I would contact Paul Martin: www.thejapanesesword.com/
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Sept 22, 2014 23:03:10 GMT
Jussi made some excellent points. If you think you need more info, you might want to head on over to the Nihonto Mesaage Board www.militaria.co.za/nmb/ with your questions. Literally tons of information that should be useful to you. One thing though - some of the members can be abrasive, so make sure to read the pinned posts/introduce yourself as a new member there
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Post by wazikan on Sept 23, 2014 4:20:54 GMT
Let me start out by saying that i hate when people question my intentions on buying stuff, that being said. Do you currently practice a jsa? The only reason why i mentioned this is because your needs might change after a few years of study. If yes then have fun and please post pics I have a few friends that have had japanese swords made in japan and the cost made my eyes fall out. One of the pluses of going with an American smith is they can buy purer steel and use modern machines to cut down off the labor. And its not half assing it. They get a better product in my eyes. the steel is more evenly distributed. If cost was no issue then semprini ya I'd have one made traditionally, but ya pay for all that stuff.
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Post by Kirin on Sept 23, 2014 4:33:55 GMT
Thanks for the feedback. I study Shinkendo/Toyama Ryu. At my level, I only use a shinken during tameshigiri.
Advance students can use shinken for everything other than sparring. I do not believe my needs would change only after a few years of study although I am sure I would want to start collecting different ones if my finances allow in the future.
I did check out that nihontou on sale from the classifieds but it is too short for me. In addition, the cost for shipping would also be quite a bit to the USA.
The swords I am aiming for would have a nagasa preferable at around 29-31 inches. In addition, if anyone has more information/opinions on the price to quality of swords at my current price range, I would be interested in knowing.
For example, if I am looking at the $2000-$4000 price range, how do you feel about the quality to price ratio of the choices? Extra points for those that have actually tried using a nihontou in comparison with other alternatives.
Please feel free to suggest more sites and other possible sword choices.
-K
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 23, 2014 5:21:51 GMT
Agreed, good value and available now, remember the higher the quality the longer the wait
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 23, 2014 5:31:10 GMT
One other source that you may want to watch is toshigi sites. Guys like Keith Larman and David Hofhine often have good swords for sale at great prices on their sites.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 11:49:32 GMT
www.aoijapan.com has some amazing items well within your posted budget. Rick Barrett's swords are great, whether traditional material or modern. I have to laugh at some of the sentiments above, it isn't like he suddenly forgets how to do a proper heat treatment or what a sword should be when he works in self-made steel instead of 1075 or w2. Unfortunately, his blades are at a premium now. In reality, they are probably closer to a true valuation. You can easily get a Howard Clark blade mounted and polished within your budget. Plenty of other options. It might not be a bad idea if you haven't already done so announce on classified boards you are looking to buy "high end" items, the market has been dry for so long a lot of us with items to sell aren't even bothering to list. Your budget will go a lot farther. What are you looking for in terms of a sword? My super modern CPM3v katana and my traditionally made katana are both high quality (and price!), but they have different characteristics, even getting away from the obvious aesthetic differences. It would be unfair to the swords and their makers to try to say which one is objectively better than the other because there is no way to compare what seem like two somewhat similar but ultimately quite different things.
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Post by Kirin on Sept 23, 2014 16:01:04 GMT
Ultimately, I am looking for something that is 1) safe, 2) good balanced, 3) can cut, and 4) aesthetically pleasing. Of course 2,3, and 4 is mostly subjective so I am interested in hearing how actual owners feel about their blades.
It is those different characteristics you state that I am interested in learning about. What are just some of the numerous differences that you notice?
Thank you everyone for the advice so far.
-K
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Post by etiennehamel on Sept 23, 2014 22:58:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2014 1:15:50 GMT
OK, that can get us heading somewhere.
Safety is largely a function of proper construction. I firmly believe having a properly built sword mounting is the best way to ensure the over-all weapon is safe. A benefit is that you will likely be able to go much longer without having to replace something. At this point, both of my swords have had several years of use without needing any real work. The tsuka and saya are still doing the job they were doing on day 1.
Good balance is going to be relative. For example, most of my katana work is two-handed, so having a little blade presence is not really a problem for me. I've moved away from overly aggressive cleavers, but I still like the feeling of having a little bit of forward intent. Too neutral is off-putting to me, but that's something that you will determine over time and exposure to blades. Before making any real decisions, I will always advocate for getting as many swords in your hand as possible. Teachers, classmates, vendors at blade shows or token kai.... anywhere you can get the opportunity especially if you get a chance to talk to someone. Your teacher should be your primary source of information but they don't have to be your only one.
Assuming the sword has a serviceable edge geometry, it should not be the limiting factor in your performance. Modern materials and methods can make a given blade much more resistant to damage from misuse, but I think fixating on that is going into the weeds. If you're training, the idea is to get some proficiency so you aren't constantly making the kind of mistakes that have you relying on a super tough sword for in the first place, right? But people want to jump into cutting without bothering to dial in their basics first so there's a tendency to want to get something they can "abuse". Or they want to do things with katana that the sword was never really meant for. I don't really get it myself.
I distinctly prefer traditional methods, materials, and aesthetics at this point. A good sword made from a modern steel, or through-hardened instead of differentially hardened will still be a good sword, especially when made by someone who cares about their craft and takes pride in their work. If you aren't wielding it clumsily, a traditional sword should be more than adequate to handle the rigors it will face under appropriate use - after all that's what they were using "back then" under much less forgiving demands than we typically put them to now.
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Post by Matthew.Jensen on Sept 25, 2014 14:20:30 GMT
I have had a few custom pieces. If I keep it in the realm of what I have owned I can speak to Clark, Bolf, Barrett, Sorrells, Morrow, Przemek, and Raw. I can't say that I know much about the sword but I have had a bit of first hand experience with these smiths works.
You can find custom blades from these smiths in the range of what you are looking for. Most of them are still making swords and you could order one that fits your needs. I like all of them for different reasons but I think Pavel Bolf gives the best value. You could also consider ordering something from Sakae forge, I think its a relation to Paul Chen but more in the custom sword realm but I have not seen his work personally.
As for nihoto, there are both new and old pieces. Either way you have a better bet of the blade increasing in value over time. Most of the smiths outside of Japan don't claim very high resale values (at least right now). That said you can also find some solid deals on those blades if they are 2nd hand.
If you are planning on doing some heavy cutting with a blade its not a bad idea to pursue something made with more modern materials.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Sept 25, 2014 15:45:59 GMT
Very good advice - one more thing I'd like to add is that if you do get an antique nihonto, please don't do any heavy cutting with it since it may damage the sword and decrease its historical importance. I have several Chinese katana I use for cutting, and although I have a Shinto katana with a modern tsuka, I only use it for Iaido practice.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 12:01:46 GMT
Not all antique katana are created or valued equally. If the NBTHK, for example, doesn't consider a given blade "worthy of preservation", I can't see a reason why it shouldn't be fair game for use.
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Post by Matthew.Jensen on Sept 26, 2014 12:34:41 GMT
Thats a fair point. Though my guess is that many of the blades that are not worthy of preservation have some significant flaws that may make them unsuitable for some uses. Also, they may not be historically significant but they are still a piece of history and can be appreciated by people with more modest budgets. Putting an antique in a position to be further diminished may not sit well with every one. The dollar value may not be high but those old blades were likely valuable to someone or they would not have survived. (generally speaking)
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Post by etiennehamel on Sept 26, 2014 14:23:57 GMT
i'm surprised that no one has mentionned jesus hernandez yet, he makes really nice blades i would probably have one remounted by josh though since a collaboration of both would simply be awesome.. if i had that kind of money i would personally order it with a pre shaped koshirae (tsuka and saya already shaped to become the koshirae but nothing on it so it can be customised) and send it to josh (frankthebunny) to have a very nice tsuka maki and lacquerwork
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