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Post by atrixnet on Sept 10, 2014 3:44:16 GMT
I think I summed up my entire question in the post title. Basically, is it possible to learn proper blade alignment using a sword without a bo-hi? Assume one has no teacher (like me for the moment. Moved to a new city and haven't found a teacher yet).
I'm told (and I've read) that a bo-hi teaches you that you are cutting correctly by rewarding good technique with a signature whistle. I imagine the whistle is supposed to be a little pat on the back saying "way to go, you are now a true warrior and are ready for battle with the wet newspaper". I'm also told (and I've read) that correct blade alignment isn't something we do naturally. By nature we do not "swing" that way. Our nature is to swing like we're holding a club or a baseball bat. True?
So I ask you: can I learn on my own to cut with proper blade alignment using a sword/iato that has no bo-hi?
Thanks folks!
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 10, 2014 4:02:19 GMT
Absolutely yes you can learn proper alignment without the bo-hi. Both types produce the tachi-kaze, the bo-hi is just slightly higher. Correct form, grip and attention to cutting planes will result in proper alignment. Here are a couple pages that have really helpful information. The first has the entire Samurai Swordmanship series by Masayuki Shimabukuro. Top notch. The second is for Dana Abbott's channel. Lots of really good stuff on there as well, especially the Backyard Cutting tutorial and the tutorial on grasping the sword. Enjoy! www.youtube.com/user/34R4K1/videoswww.youtube.com/user/Learnthesword/videos
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 10, 2014 4:28:52 GMT
Yes, added to the above is Practise, Practise, Practise, Practise, Practise, Practise, Ps. take a video of your first cutting, put it away then do the same a month later, compare the two :lol:
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 10, 2014 9:11:53 GMT
As already covered, all blades, bo-hi/fuller or not, will produce a "tachikaze" of some level. Blades with will be more audible, but watch out, because they also make more noise when swung wrong. My first "real sword" was an older version of Hanwei's Practical katana, which has no bohi. 10, almost 11 years later it's still my favorite tachikaze, but I can't hear it if so much as the ceiling fan is on. Having a suitably quiet place to practice is important. Come to think of it, nearly every other sword I own has a groove of some shape and size along some portion of its length; ATrim 1315, Hanwei William Marshall, Musahi Zetsurin, some other random Chinatana, Hanwei Shasqua, baskethilt-mounted Musashi shirakawa...oh, the Dynasty Forge Musha I have does not have a hi. It's a big, beefy blade, though, so the tachikaze is a bit lackluster compared to the lighter, thinner Hanwei Practical... Anyway, yeah, you don't need a groove to tell you if your'e cutting right. It just makes it a little louder so you can hear it better with other things going on. Remember, the original purpose of the hi was not as a training aid for tachikaze sake, it was to lighten the blade with minimal loss of mass to a given width. It just kind of happens to make a sword louder. If you're really worried about edge alignment, before tackling wet newspaper or anything of substance, try cutting free-hanging pieces of paper. Assuming your edge is sharp enough, the shape of the cut will show you your alignment. If it's really bad, you won't cut anything. :x
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 10, 2014 9:26:00 GMT
Is it really that bad? :oops:
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 10, 2014 9:26:50 GMT
I'll certainly have a look at these! Many thanks to you for the insight/info!
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 10, 2014 9:31:01 GMT
That's quite the sword lineup! I appreciate the encouraging words. I only have one sword (a T10 monosteel DH without bo-hi). It makes no sound whatsoever. I have what I'd call pretty darn good hearing. I have only heard the sound of the katana when swung at purposely flat angles, slapping the air.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 10, 2014 9:43:35 GMT
The sound your sword should be making is a sharp, crisp whistle. Depending on how fat your sword is, this will be diminished. My PK is very narrow, with a very flat grind, so it makes a very quiet, but sharp sound. The Zetsurin is much beefier, with a very deep groove, but still a pretty flat grind, and it never really has made a "proper" tachikaze; just a really loud "whoosh" sound. Hanwei's shasqua may actually have a slightly more pleasant sound, with its wide, shallow fuller and thinner blade. There's less than a half-inch of proper edge outside the fuller, so it's almost all grove, and makes a very distinct, sharp whistling sound when swung. If you think my petty selection is impressive, go check out the Members Collections subforum: viewforum.php?f=34 :oops:
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 10, 2014 11:21:02 GMT
I dare not. I'll get to reading and not resurface for another 24 hours or more. :lol: Right now I'm just trying to focus on my learning and so forth. I might nickname my current sword "nija's breath"... because you can't hear it. You really can't. Here it is imgur.com/a/S4SkfNow I've really got my eye on this one as a near-future purchase: Hanwei Practical Plus XL Light Katana. I expect a nice whistle from that one, especially for the price (a 600 dollar sword, 340 at discount? whew) As my own collection grows, it will probably grow in price-per-sword. I've purchased based on my needs. The first purchase was to get my hands on something other than a wall-hanger or SLO. I wanted to start basic training and I needed a budget cutter that I didn't care so much for that my heart would break over scratches. The next purchase goal is to give me a nice sword for two purposes: eye candy on the stand and dry-cut training (did I hear a whistle?) A good bo-hi I think can help me achieve those goals. The PPK XL I mentioned seems to fit that profile, although I really love one of the swords on sale by huawei. I've just had problems up front in getting to purchase one and I'm kind of on the fence. The huawei sword is just gorgeous, priced about the same, but has no bo-hi. So I guess...I'll get the PPK and earn my way into an even better sword by achieving my goal of proper blade alignment mastery. Perhaps then I'd "graduate" myself to one of the huawei swords that look so freakin awesome!
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 10, 2014 12:17:45 GMT
I was wondering why you spelled practice with an "ise". Then BAM it hit me. You're an aussie-rabbit. No joke, you fellow ex-British colony club members speak your own interpretation of the queen's English.
Practise I shall!
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Post by Lobster Hunter on Sept 10, 2014 18:09:07 GMT
It's hard to make tachikaze with some swords. I had a cheap Masahiro with a badly ground in bo-hi (rounded, not sharp angles) which barely made a sound. Some solid body blades with a faulty blade/tsuka fit or a twist in the blade will also hinder tachikaze. In general, making your solid body blade sing consistently just takes practice to achieve that proper edge alignment and velocity.
The PPK XL Light makes a great tachikaze, by the way. Good choice.
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Post by johnwalter on Sept 11, 2014 16:35:49 GMT
Please keep in mimd there are many aspects to good tenouchi.Tachikaze with a bohi blade doesnt always mean good hasuji.You can get the sound with no hasuji,knowing what sound is correct will take practice with your sword.I prefer suburi with a nohi blade for that reason.You get tachikaze with no bohi,you have good hasuji.
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Post by Unit731 on Sept 12, 2014 0:50:18 GMT
I used to own a KC Katana with a bo-hi, which had a very audible tachi kaze, three whistles, to let you know it was correctly angled. It was a great training tool, cause it only flourished by force (swinging hard as opposed to using a "snap" to your cuts), which wouldn't be used in my tightly cramped indoor spaces, or proper technique.
It helped a lot, but wasn't necessary. I can hear a tachi kaze even on my thicker ronin katana, even with minimal force (again, using "snap") and space, such as sitting cross legged on my bed and doing an overhead straight cut.
TL;DR: No, it isn't hard or necessary, but it isn't as easy.
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 12, 2014 19:09:42 GMT
Ok. Going to take a little while to translate, but I'm sure it will be worth it because you've got a reputation for being an amazing cutter!
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 12, 2014 19:11:39 GMT
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question. The bit about snapping was particularly helpful because I was under the impression from previous reading that snapping was integral to proper technique
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Post by Unit731 on Sept 12, 2014 23:02:38 GMT
The proper way to achieve this snap, unless you already know, is by using the handle, gripping both ends of it, and pulling the bottom of the handle toward you as your front hand, near the guard, aims the cut (pushing forward), all while swinging both arms in an arc, kinda like a fishing rod. I like to do this by starting my cut by pushing the back of the handle forward and as it reaches the end of my arms reach, pushing up with my front hand, near the guard while pulling down with my back hand.
I am explaining this terribly. I apologize, I am fatigued from work. :lol:
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Sept 12, 2014 23:46:49 GMT
John is right - producing tachikaze on an iaito/shinken with bohi doesn't necesarilly mean you have correct edge alignment. It does help especially at the beginning levels using a light(er) sword with bohi, but it isn't the end all be all of good hasuji. One thing of note though: I've had a few Japanese made iaito with no bohi and others with bohi - one of the no bohi iaito was and is still a PITA to make tachikaze. Even both of my senseis have had a hard time with it - guess the geometry's off. I have no trouble with any of my other swords, including a no bohi Shinto nihonto, just this one particular iaito. Anyway, good luck with your pursuits.
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 13, 2014 12:33:09 GMT
Yes, yes this is what I read. This is correct then? It's very clearly explained. The push with top hand, pull with bottom hand snap beginning just before the strike and continuing through it to the end...
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Post by Unit731 on Sept 13, 2014 16:02:05 GMT
It is the way I was taught. Its good practice to achieve tachi kaze but being able to stop it at waist height, parallel to the floor. I recommend doing this many times a day to achieve proper feel and technique, even if not utilizing a full arc.
Also keep in mind to keep the palm of your hand on the part of the handle that aligns with the spine of the blade. To "push down" the edge on your target.
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 13, 2014 22:03:47 GMT
This makes a lot of sense. One question though: why train to stop the sword swing at waist height, mid swing? Did I misunderstand?
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