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Post by SLz on Sept 2, 2014 4:50:41 GMT
Hi guys I'm new to the forum, long time lurker though.
I've been struggling to find many places at all that sell authentic shinken. As in; Made at least 200 years ago, preferably much older and made in japan. This is for future reference while I'm saving towards it.
On a side note, I also wondered for now where you can also buy modern shinken (from real swordsmiths of Japan using traditional methods) at a reasonable price?
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Post by kingrikoraru on Sept 2, 2014 5:06:37 GMT
Define reasonable.
Best place for a starter blade is the nihonto message board, aoi-art, nihonto antiques (moses site) or yakiba. If you have experienced you can also try your luck on ebay. Good blades you're looking for will be quiet expensive, and they are not shinken as they should never be used in any sort of cutting as you're looking for blades from the shinto to shin shinto period.
Modern blade, gendaito and shinsakuto, you can get for around 1k-4/5k and up (your out of polish, TLC blades will start at about 1-2k depending on smith. Some famous one will go for higher even if the blade requires polish.) if you're talking about a WW2 gendaito (definitely read up on how to spot one if you want one; showato are not traditionally made but gendaito are and some smiths make both and sometimes there are no stamps to indicate anything....it gets quiet complicated to determine) or you can try your hand at a second hand shinsakuto (2-3k up) but having one made or buying a brand new one will be upwards of 5k for a shinken and more for an art sword before mounting.
Definitely at least go to NMB and do some readings and research before anything and get advice before buying. Above all though, just be prepared to shell out a lot of money if you want a blade in good condition, especially an older one.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 2, 2014 5:06:51 GMT
"A reasonable price" is very subjective, and most would argue that a modern shinken by a Japanese smith is anything but...but here's one place I can think of off-hand for those: swordstore.com/japanese-swords.htmlAlso this place: www.jidai.jp/shinken.aspAs for antiques, loads of places. www.aoijapan.com/nihontoantiques.com/www.nipponto.com/www.nihonto.com/itemsaleswords.htmlnihonto.com.au/tetsugendo.com/GallerySwords.htmlyakiba.com/nihonto.htmJust to name a few. Some are based in the UK, some in the EU, most in Japan. One or more were Australia, but I can't remember except the .au one. There's one or two others I've got bookmarked that are Aussie, but I don't know where you are and Australia is kind of inconvenient for pretty much everybody but Australians. :oops: There are also some trustworthy eBay vendors, and if you know what you're looking for you can land a great deal there. Be careful, though, as there are way too many lousy repros being sold as antiques. Browse around some of the sites I linked and get a feel for what a nihonto should look like, then go on eBay and see if you can't spot the "fakes" among the "genuines." It's fun.  I was beaten to this post by seconds, and the previous poster mentioned a lot of the places I linked. I'd actually forgotten about NMB ( www.nihontomessageboard.com/ ) despite being a member, on the technicality that I have registered an account and posted two or three times, years ago. I wonder if my account is still active... |
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Post by kingrikoraru on Sept 2, 2014 5:14:38 GMT
Ebay is not a good place for anyone starting to collect imo, and even the best vendors can put out a few bad ones. Because even after you got through the mass of fake chinese blades and general showato, you really need a bit of knowledge or some help at first to translate the smiths name, determine if it's gimei (fake signature) spot fatal flaws and such... On the other hands, sites listed above (the good ones) will be more expensive because most of them are consigned. Yakiba and nihontoantiques are based in the U.S and they're definitely the first 2 any beginning us collector should check out. From my experience, spend the extra money buying from them than anyone on ebay or get one on the NMB for sale page (they're super nice and helpful if you sound like you at least did some hw) (some one has a really good investment/starter blade that I've been eyeing on there) Edit: I know i just want to emphasize on the difficulty of finding a good piece on ebay since it sounds a lot easier than it looks. Personally if you have time, wait and camp the for sale page on NMB and generally that gives you the best bet for value. If you want one soon or if something catches your eyes on the those vendors then get that. Aoi art is also one of the best place to hunt for one if you have time www.nihontomessageboard.com/links.html <-----Link to all the decent to great vendors and also some research materials. |
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 2, 2014 5:19:50 GMT
Please don't think I was recommending eBay as a first-time buying "safe bet," on the contrary, I'd reiterate that it's a dangerous game. I merely suggested one take the opportunity to compare the "fakes" to the "genuines" all in the same place, after looking over a good number of the trustworthy "genuines" on the other sites.
NihontoAntiques is one of the pricier places I've seen, but they've also got some of the better swords I've seen, so there's that. Yakiba has a few within my personal range, which is stuck right around $2-3k, which if I really felt like it I could save in a few months...but as it goes with antiques, the safest bets often cost the most. Buying a known, confirmed blade from a known, confirmed vendor, often on consignment from another collector, will cost. Is it worth it? Well, how badly do you want it? :geek:
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Post by kingrikoraru on Sept 2, 2014 5:31:48 GMT
Oh also there's www.nihontoart.com but between that and nihonto.ca but those are mostly eye candy and lottery wish list stuff for me |
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 2, 2014 5:46:21 GMT
Oh yeah, I forgot about nihontoart. They've got an eBay store, too, under the same name. I'm in love with this piece: nihontoart.com/item-details.php?id=81 Ah, to be rich... Ooh, the price has come down since I last checked...still can't afford it. Welp. |
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Post by SLz on Sept 2, 2014 6:55:02 GMT
I'm actually from Australia so if you had the links I'd appreciate seeing them too! Thank you for all the other links and information too!
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Post by SLz on Sept 2, 2014 7:03:22 GMT
I was looking for shinken though. I've seen some swords certified by nbthk rated as "good, excellent, etc" cutting. Even in some of the sites linked in this thread have this written... Hm. It's not like I would be using it daily, or even weekly. But I'd like something that is more then just a display sword, even with that being its main purpose, when it comes to a sword from the past.
I'm not sure. The things I've read about WW2 swords aren't that good.
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Post by Vue on Sept 2, 2014 8:40:23 GMT
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 2, 2014 9:34:56 GMT
I have a Taishō period sword, (1912-1926) a much safer bet than WW2 swords, there were some beautiful blades handed in at the end of WW2 and you can get lucky, but be prepared to spend a great deal of money, if however you are looking for a heirloom to pass on there are smiths outside of Japan doing beautiful work.
Don't get hung up on Tamahagane, during the early periods the only "iron" available was iron sand, a poor substitute for ore. So the smiths made the best of what they had.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Sept 2, 2014 10:19:07 GMT
You can find plenty of swords from the links provided by NMB's links section that was posted here earlier. I think the important thing is decide what you will like to buy the most and deciding on budget limits. In Australia you have John Grasso: www.nihonto.com.au/ (John is a great guy, I've never purchased from him but talked on emails a bit) Adrian Schlemmer: www.samuraiantiques.com/p1.htmRichard Thomas: www.bushidoboutique.net/Doug Austin: www.guntoartswords.com/You also have couple of collector circles in Australia as well as couple big yearly shows as far as I know. Western Australia Arms fair is just coming up: www.waarmsandarmour.com/eventsIf you are looking for modern nihonto for cutting I'm thinking c. 400,000 Yen would be somewhat reasonable budget. |
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Post by kingrikoraru on Sept 2, 2014 14:50:02 GMT
I'm pretty sure any papering agency hands out paper for a sword based on their worthiness of preservation. I think what you're talking about is the wazamono ranking and that's the general sharpness of blade made by a particular smith, and in that area it gets expensive really quickly.
If you want a sword to use for cutting every now and then....1900+ is your best bet. I think in fact, one of the best blade that martial artist and collector seeks from this period is actually a Koa Isshin Mantetsu katana ( range from 2k up for a decent one and up to 5k if it has the mantetsu stamp), which is not made traditionally but is known for being both tough and sharp. It's a really sought after item. I actually have one that I'm restoring to cut with. Anything older is more of a study and appreciation piece.
For WW2, any star stamped blades are good. Yasukuni Shrine blades are beautiful get ridiculously expensive quickly. You also have various smiths here and there that are highly rated as well (Nagamitsu, Kanenaga, and emura comes to mind)
Also on WW2, it's more recent so there were more information on the bad traditionally made but mass produced blade, but don't think that it's never happened before. That happens a lot during the various japanese warring period.
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Post by Ona on Sept 2, 2014 16:59:10 GMT
Antique blades are everywhere if you know where to look, but by the sound of it, a bare minimum of $2000 is going to be the way things roll for one of those.
But a Shinken? As in something you want to actively cut with? Made over two centuries ago?
Yeah, that's not going to go for any "reasonable" price. I can tell ya now. Antique is one thing. A gunuinely forged Katana from back then, however, isn't going to have the same quality of steel in it as a modern forged blade. The chances of finding anything that old in a genuinely usable condition are slim. Not impossible, but slim.
At any rate, what you get will likely have been refurbished, possibly multiple times. Whether you class that as "antique" anymore is up to you, but all things age, and steel - while tough - in no way lasts forever.
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Post by kingrikoraru on Sept 2, 2014 17:42:56 GMT
Yeah, a reasonably priced blade at the period you want will mostly likely be "tired" (hardened edge is fading away from multiple polish) or needs either a finish or full polish, and that would need a good Japanese polisher since it's an old sword and would cost 1 to 2 grand with about a year wait time average, and you can get the possibilities of fatal flaws showing that would essentially ruin the sword. Any sword that is in polish would have been through a couple before and if not it's going to cost a big load of cash. Much like cars certain blade made by certain master would be as good if not better than recent Nihonto but that's going to cost a small fortune. So at the age you're talking about, they're all collectors item.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 2, 2014 18:19:35 GMT
Sorry for the delay, been at work all day. Seems the others have provided some good info for you, and a couple sellers I didn't know about. Here are two I was thinking of, though I've never dealt with them, some of their offerings appeal to me, and at what I can consider reasonable prices: www.cmmilitaryantiques.com/search.php?pcat=3www.genuine-antique-swords.com/index.htmlI'd agree with the others, if you really feel like you want to cut with a "real" Japanese sword, please do commission a shinsakuto (newly-made sword) of your own from at least a half-decent smith. The cost will be pretty well on par with any antique that would handle the task, if you shop around and work the project right, but it'll be your sword and if you bungle it up, you'll get a lot less spite from the rest of us. |
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Post by NihontoEurope on Nov 29, 2017 23:46:53 GMT
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Post by avoidnhb on Apr 9, 2021 18:36:18 GMT
The nihonto message board (militaria.co.za)is a good place to get ripped off. They like to drive new buyers away from ebay sellers, but all you will find there are items they have found on ebay for cheap and are trying to flip. If you point this out your conversation will be removed.
They like to trash talk sellers like daimyou54eb but dont mind flipping their items for a profit. You certainly wont find a better deal there buying daimyou54eb items second hand.
Youd be much better off getting something from daimyou54eb or koushya on ebay. Samurai museum has a website that is much cheaper than what he lists on ebay. Aoi art is also a fine dealer.
Militaria.co.za is a racket. Dead thread i know, but relevant. Better off buying directly from a Japanese dealer.
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Post by JH Lee on Apr 9, 2021 19:55:15 GMT
NMB is fine. It is a good place to get help and information. There are professional dealers, collectors, and various craftsmen who post some really great stuff. Excellent deals as well on swords and fittings not posted anywhere else.
Like anywhere else, there may be the occasional person who tries to "flip" an eBay find, but to generalize the entire place as a place to be avoided is simply false and is a disservice to those who may benefit from a valuable educational resource.
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Post by avoidnhb on Apr 9, 2021 21:34:02 GMT
Im not referring to it as a place for information. Im referring to it as a place to buy a nihonto sword.
They like to talk trash about dealers on ebay but if you point out that someone is clearly flipping items from a seller they call dross and garbage they will just remove your conversation. You would be much better off buying first hand from japan.
Use it all you would like for an information resource. I personally would avoid buying anything there.
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