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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 4, 2014 8:57:58 GMT
To be honest I am a bit worried. For us consumers it's pretty hard to provide 100% accurate information about some businesses business practices especially when many of us are across the globe. And I do think some quite compelling evidence was provided by various members of the forum about the origins of DSA's Japanese and European swords. And in my opinion, every time their explanation has fallen short. To be honest only production that I could almost 100% guarantee would be couple of Finnish smiths and 1,2 or 3 of other European smiths as I have personally visited their forges and saw couple of them actually working on blades for a bit. Yet again usually ones word is enough that I will believe them. I do trust the word of most manufacturers and smiths enough, so I don't feel the need to "challenge" their word. As an example I can say an educated guess many times about the origins of some Longquan sourced katana. No my guesses about the origins are probably not 100% accurate, but they are good enough for myself. If DSA themselves will provide compelling truth about the origins of each of their lineup, I have no trouble giving a public apology in the forums. However that does not remove the fact, that so far pretty much all the evidence offered by the company themselves have been bit shady in my opinion. And usually the truth keeps changing on the way. When I get the feeling I'm being lied to by a company, I just shrug my shoulders. When I get that feeling that a company is doing it to me over and over again, I'm getting a bit insulted. For a company proving the origins of their product shouldn't be hard, right? But these debates will go on and on, and having been going on for years. And we never get the compelling proof either. We get promised various kinds of evidence, but we never get them... I don't think anyone is on a crusade against DSA, but trust works in both ways. You trust in forum members and we will trust you back. Yep I think I'm starting to sound like a broken record.
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Aaron
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,369
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Post by Aaron on Apr 4, 2014 14:14:17 GMT
I just want to clarify that this is not entirely accurate. The burden of proof lies with the party making the original claim, not those who argue against it. In this instance, the original claim was made by DSA, that their swords are hand forged in Canada. Therefore the burden of proof lies on them, not those who disagree. Once DSA puts forth verified proof that they do or do not hand forge their swords in Canada, THEN the burden of proof would be shifted to those who still disagree. But this would only be the case if DSA proved their claim beyond reasonable doubt.
This is not a court of law. It is not "innocent until proven guilty." If a claim is made, it must be backed up. This is not just according to the rules of logic, but also the rules for Manufacturers and Vendors on this very forum.
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Post by Student of Sword on Apr 4, 2014 17:38:50 GMT
In commerce, the burden of proof is with the seller, not the buyer. If the seller claim that the beef he sell is organic grass fed, he need to prove that it is organic grass fed. No one expect the buyer to prove that it is not. This is true of all claims make by seller-- ISO 9000 process, cruelty free, and "Made in [country]." Further more, as I stated in the previous page, both US and Canada commmercial code is clear that "Made in [country]" require proves, provided by the seller.
That aside, I understand Bill's point. It is not the responsibility and duty of SBG to compel the seller to provide evidence. SBG is not the Federal Trade Commission.
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Post by William Swiger on Apr 5, 2014 4:59:15 GMT
Friends, Romans and Countrymen - The forum encourages discussion of vendors and products. Nobody is saying you have to take anyone's response as gospel and you can question it in a polite and courteous manner. The intent is not to turn threads into a bashing and infighting mentality. Keep threads on subject. When I said to make up your own mind on what is provided by the manufacturer, you will do that anyway as we all do. You can discuss it openly but keep it respectful for the good of the forum. You guys have seen how bad some of these threads have gotten over the years. It is our fault as members and especially moderators that this was allowed to happen as we for the most part share common ground. We overall just need to do a better job all around of keeping it civil and professional in these threads.
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Post by Gaufried on Apr 6, 2014 3:05:30 GMT
Then why are the SBG moderators chiding people who want DSA to finally prove its own self-generated claims? Why is it that my friend could walk through the actual existent brick & mortar Arms & Armour workshop in the American state of Minnesota and witness clearly & personally that men were actually making weaponry by forging and/or grinding, weaponry which he owns and which he has put through vigourous test-cutting that I have personally witnessed and it is still holding up well - whereas DSA sold my same friend a sword that broke at the hilt just from flourishing with it in the air and does not even deliver upon its promise of merely videographic proof of its workshop? Why, why, why??? :roll: :?: :!: :evil:
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Post by RicWilly on Apr 6, 2014 3:51:36 GMT
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Post by Kuran on Apr 6, 2014 4:24:55 GMT
I've yet to purchase a blade from DSA, but I like to think that I can apply common sense to a situation. The issue here is that there's debate over whether the blades are hand-made in a Canadian workshop or made en masse in a Chinese one, right?
DSA says that they hand make them, and the second and third posts in this thread refer to the reason for the sharpie marks being on the tang. Which some people believe and some don't.
So.....
If DSA is claiming that the marks are made by the craftsman(or woman)'s initials, along with warks for welding, but the purchaser in this case is saying that the marks made are a Chinese symbol....what about other blades? This is a forum with hundreds/thousands of people, and I'm betting that quite a few of them have purchased blades from DSA in the past. So what if a few of those people lurking around took a look on the tang's of their blades? If on their own blades there are squiggles that turn out to be Chinese symbols for earth, wind, or fire (See what I did there?) then clearly something's up. If they turn out to truly be initials and a few odd lines from grinding...problem solved?
Just trying to help with my 0.02
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Post by William Swiger on Apr 6, 2014 6:11:59 GMT
SBG moderators are not chiding members who want any manufacturer to provide more information concerning their products. Ask away in a professional manner and discuss any lack of response or provided response in the same manner. Do not turn the threads into a pissing contest with the manufacturer or other members who may not have the same opinion. That is all we are asking for here.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 6, 2014 13:25:50 GMT
I believe DSA does have a showroom as a part of their forging facility. That can be seen in the episode of Only in Montreal:
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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No matter where you go, there you are.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Apr 6, 2014 14:57:44 GMT
Experiences and opinions vary... but I have owned several DSA swords... and while they were a great many faults (Too heavy, no distal taper, rough edges and difficult to sharpen) one of them was never being fragile. Dunno how your friend broke his sword just 'flourishing' it... but in use I have found DSA swords to be very tough and durable. As to your friend walking threw Arms and Armour's workshop... DSA has extended an open invitation for anyone to come do the same at theirs. I would like to see at least one of us take them up on that offer... but thus far no one has.
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Post by mcapanelli on Apr 6, 2014 15:18:04 GMT
Actually the offer has been extend to me as I'll happen to be up in Potsdam NY sometime over the summer. That puts me about an hour or so away from them. As you all know I'm certainly objective so maybe we can put all this to bed once and for all time. As for a sword breaking during flourishing, I had that happen to the only DSA I've ever owned. It was years ago though and DSA has made leaps and bounds since then. I think it may have been over a decade ago now that I"m thinking about it. Maybe 2002? Other DSA's I've handled haven't felt fragile, in fact its quite the opposite feeling too overbuilt for my personal tastes.
I don't look at it as a reflection on their quality but a testament as to how far they've come since then. Everyone has to start somewhere so I don't hold a bad sword 10+ years ago against them. The end result is after some calls back and forth they took it back and refunded my money, I paid return shipping and felt I was dealt with fairly.
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Post by frankthebunny on Oct 28, 2014 3:35:57 GMT
I just saw this picture of a katana nakago and thought of this thread Attachments:
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