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Post by mcapanelli on Mar 28, 2014 3:44:57 GMT
Hello all,
As a disclaimer of sorts I’d like it t be known that I actually really like this sword and think it’s a welcome addition to the market in that price range. It preformed much better than the other swords in this range, the Tinkers, and looks a whole lot better, IMHO of course, but I’ll post a complete review in April.
What I want to address is the marking on my blade, which have been found on other Feders in the test group. This isn’t the first time characters have been fond on a DSA blade but this it the first time to my knowledge that someone has posted a video of the marks. So without further ado I present the mark. Note that I didn’t edit this video in any way other than to clip the ending to omit my own opinion and allow you all to make up your own minds.
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Post by Darksword Armory on Mar 28, 2014 13:50:19 GMT
Well, first, Mike, thank you for posting this - I think you may have just solved a mystery about where all the rumors about the sharpie characters comes from.
So, just to explain to everybody, when we make the swords in the shop, for quality control purposes the smiths are required to initial the blades they work on. One of our smiths is named Marc Crevier, whose writing can be (unfortunately) fairly dreadful, and his letters can sometimes merge together. So if his initials sometimes end up looking like a Chinese character for water, that would explain one of the controversies that arose a few months ago.
(For the record, we don't have anybody working in the shop who is of Chinese origin right now, or when this blade was made, and the language of the shop is English.)
This is a partial response - Eyal still needs to take a look at this for himself sometime this afternoon, and make sure that these are indeed Marc's initials (because possibility number two is that somebody screwed around with the sword between assembly and Mike taking it apart, and we REALLY want to rule that out).
So, we are looking into this, and we should hopefully be able to confirm that it's Marc's initials either sometime this afternoon, or Monday morning.
Best regards to all,
Robert Marks
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Post by Darksword Armory on Mar 31, 2014 15:10:48 GMT
Hi all!
Thank you for your patience on this. We have looked into this, and we now know what is going on.
It turns out that the minute Eyal saw the video (unfortunately, he wasn’t able to look at it until early this morning, which is why there was this delay), he knew what those marks were. It’s not a Chinese or Japanese character, nor is it a really bad “MC” for Marc Crevier. It’s actually a combination of two things.
The first is grinder’s marks. We forge all of our swords, which means that one of the stages is grinding down the tang so that it will fit into the handle. This involves using markers to mark lines where the grinding has to be. This grinding can take a couple of attempts to get right, and cause part of the lines to be ground off. So, part of what you’re seeing is the remains of those lines.
The second is the “M” for Marc Crevier. As I mentioned in a previous post, those who work on the swords are required to initial them for quality control purposes, and his writing is fairly bad. It doesn’t help that part of it appears to have been ground off.
So, that’s what it is – any resemblance to a Chinese or Japanese character is coincidental.
Again, we want to thank you all for your patience, and Mike for bringing this into the open where it could be addressed.
We’ve got a lot going on this week, and as a result we are not going to be monitoring this thread, so if you have any questions you would like to ask us, please contact us by private message or by email. Also, as I have mentioned on several occasions, we do give tours of the shop, so if you are in (or going to be in) the Montreal area and you want to see where the swords are made (and meet the people who make them), just give us a call.
Best regards to all,
Robert Marks
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Post by William Swiger on Apr 2, 2014 10:10:11 GMT
Paul and the moderators have been discussing all these heated and often very negative posts. The level of disrespect towards a vendor and fellow forum members is very much against the rules of conduct established for our forum. DSA technically is engaging directly with the community, getting feedback, and going forward. A lot of the responses in these threads is excessive both ways and not what our forum is about.
There are some new rules coming out soon that will help guide us in our interactions with each other and manufacturers who post on our forum as well. That being said, current rules of conduct have been overlooked and/or ignored by many members and that is going to be corrected.
We do not need to see any more manufacturers get chased off the forums (unless they break the rules of course). We cannot allow a percentage of our members to poison every thread a manufacturer starts. We cannot keep running manufactures off our forum and it is going to stop. No matter what we personally think, it has to stop for the good of the forum and sword community. Treat them and everyone on this forum with respect.
I want to formally say I am sorry for deleting members posts in this thread. Had to be done.
Nobody is telling members here they cannot have their own opinions and cannot post concerns with any company out there. What we are saying is the follow-on bashing and internal member fighting will not be tolerated anymore. If you post a concern and the manufacturer responds, the response can be questioned and clarification requested. Read the provided answers and make your own mind up if it is acceptable for you.
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Post by mcapanelli on Apr 2, 2014 11:09:35 GMT
I can understand deleting infighting, but why was my second picture deleted?
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Post by William Swiger on Apr 2, 2014 11:20:59 GMT
I deleted the posts that were not the original post and the responses from the maunufacturer.
Please repost if you think it adds any value to your original post and might be explained differently by the manufacturer. You might also add it to your original post as it is the same subject.
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Post by mcapanelli on Apr 2, 2014 11:58:50 GMT
Does that include claims as to the origin of manufacture?
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Post by William Swiger on Apr 2, 2014 13:09:31 GMT
Here is the fact of the matter. Everything is speculation. DSA states made in Canada. I have not seen absolute evidence to prove otherwise. We have a couple of swords with markings on the tang that look like a Chinese character. DSA says it is not and offered their explanation. People can agree or disagree with the explanation. What more is there to it? The thread could have 200 posts but the initial post and the manufacturer explanation is the same. Some people say the blades and/or parts are imported while others say they are not including the manufacturer. The total evidence presented over the years for the importing theory is not compelling enough to make an absolute.
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Post by mcapanelli on Apr 2, 2014 13:34:07 GMT
Fair enough.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 14:50:45 GMT
"innocent until proven guilty"; yeah, youre right William; as so many times. It is that way in jurisdiction, and it should be the same in everyday live;and thats good so...but after all...i dont know. Just not buying of them maybe the best decision.
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Post by mcapanelli on Apr 2, 2014 16:05:09 GMT
So you're saying you make the handle before the sword is finished and fit the tang to the wood? And its also common practice to draw out the tang during forging, not grind it in after. You draw out and hit the tang to shape while the sword is being forged, not after. if your swords were stock removal than that would be another story but if their forged then that's a curious way to do it, and something that no other smith seems to do as its a waste of material and therefore money.
Check out the 1:04 mark onwards.
This one starts at the 4:40 mark.
Tang is drawn out at around the 8:00 mark
So without going back in to how a tang is actually forged, you don't find it odd that a multitude of native Chinese people identified the mark as wood? What would to odds be that I'd write something, seeing as my initials are also MC and I have bad handwriting, and it be unanimously identified by native speakers of another language as the same word. And we're not just talking a bout one person, we're talking about 10+ at this point not including our own Lancelot Chan. Occam's razor isn't working in your favor here.
I'm not saying this to be argumentative but in the interest of transparency. This has been an issue for quite some time, I think almost a decade now. Now is your opportunity to put this thing to bed once and for all.
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Post by mcapanelli on Apr 2, 2014 16:08:42 GMT
Almost forgot, watch a grip being applied to a tang at about the 3:48 mark
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Post by Insane on Apr 2, 2014 21:01:31 GMT
When forging a blade you forge the shape but profile further with a vile or grinder. Then you harden and temper. After that you fine tune again with a vile and or grinder. So i guess that is what they mean.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Apr 4, 2014 3:20:00 GMT
If the drawing out is did right you don't have to do any grinding. Maybe file the shoulder a little where the hilt meets up. If there is any grinding it will be very little.
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Post by Insane on Apr 4, 2014 5:38:38 GMT
Very true, the better you are with the hammer the less cleaning up is needed.
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Post by Student of Sword on Apr 4, 2014 5:58:47 GMT
Agree that the circumstantial evidences presented does not make it absolute that products are being imported. However, preponderance of the evidence (which is the balance of evidences) is rather one-sided. There are circumstantial evidences that they are imported. But more importantly, there is zero evidences that they are domestically produced - none. Some evidences on one side, and zero evidence on the other side.
In addition, the explanation is really strange. Not just on this particular case, but over the years.
Of course, the consumers have the right to judge for themselves. So here is the question, what are the probabilities that during manufacturing process, somehow symbols that look exactly like a Chinese character appear on the tang? Let say that it is a coincidence. What are the probabilities that said coincidence happen not once, but twice? Each time as a very different Chinese character?
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Post by William Swiger on Apr 4, 2014 6:42:44 GMT
If you use the answer provided to the question, it is very likely that marks will be found on some tangs.
In most cases, the burden of proof is on the accuser and not the accused. The explanations provided by the maker for the marks found on different swords was given. I think we need to make our own determination on this issue and decide if we want to purchase or not purchase their products.
They have stated their answers on different questions and as a consumer, it is your choice to support this company or take your business elsewhere.
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Post by Student of Sword on Apr 4, 2014 6:58:33 GMT
This the market which pertaining to commerce regulation, not a court of law. Organic food producers have to present certifications that their food are indeed organic, consumers do not have to prove that they are not organic. Jewelers have to prove that their diamonds are not blood diamonds, not the consumers. It is called truth in advertising. I cannot speak for Canada, but in the US, companies that labeled their product "Made in USA" have to prove that they are made in the USA. The burden of proof does not fall on the consumers. The Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection: business.ftc.gov/documents/bus03 ... a-standard
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 7:25:29 GMT
Good point.
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Post by Student of Sword on Apr 4, 2014 7:33:19 GMT
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