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Post by Military History is 4 Me on Oct 6, 2013 0:24:00 GMT
This is a video that I threw together based on information that I gathered from both this forum and other sources. It is by no means historically accurate but it is more of a self study on individual legionary gladius training. I am a total amateur movie maker and filmed this with my I-phone.....so don't expect much but at least I had fun making it. Topics: I. Roman Legionary Equipment and the Gladius II. Combat Stance and Drawing the Gladius III. Thrust Attack Techniques IV. Target Areas of the Body V. Individual Pell Drills without Scutum VI. Individual Pell Drills with Scutum ... e=youtu.be
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Oct 6, 2013 1:30:49 GMT
This is good stuff, 30 years in the SCA...and I wish any of us had something this nice to use as a reference. +karma!
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Post by Military History is 4 Me on Oct 6, 2013 1:38:42 GMT
Thanks man....thats why i made the vid...ive been researching this stuff for three months...I have discussed this with many experts in the field and no one could come up with anything concrete because there isnt any actual historical texts that have survived.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Oct 6, 2013 7:21:39 GMT
Good job, that was quite interesting and will certainly help people who want to research roman fighting techniques.
On a side note: it does seem as though your wooden pell got loose... that's exactly what mine always look like after a few weeks.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Oct 6, 2013 7:49:32 GMT
Just don't let Bill Blake the so called Roman militaty expert see this. He said Romans put their right foot forward and used slashing attacks. Me as far as I've read on the subject you are doing it right. Could pause on the written parts a little longer, didn't give me at least enough time to read it.
The roman style wasn't pretty, just very effective. It wasn't beat in combat until heavy cavalry came into use, ie horse men using stirrups, so they could get more impact behind the lance.
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Post by Beowulf on Oct 6, 2013 8:34:35 GMT
Here are some thoughts for you. I love what I see BTW, I'm just tossing this stuff out here based on what I was thinking watching your video:
period art: Collect images. Interpret what you're seeing based on your experiments. Are there any other prevalent postures in gladius or scutum (or foot placement) you have not explored yet?
Look at Teutonic based later martial arts footwork, in example Medieval Longsword, Messer, etc. We do NOT know if the Roman's opponent's fought like this, but we DO know the Roman's spoke of similar movements when describing the Celts. We also can plainly see from the Roman equipment this gear seems designed for a fight-in-place mentality. Something that might counter such active and fierce motion.
armpit as a target?
work with someone attacking from the front with the scutum. Observe "windows of most opportunity" your sword works in.
Can you cut a weapon arm after the scutum wards off the weapon and the opponent is withdrawing? How?
We know that breaking the line could be fatal when they were holding a piece of ground. So I doubt you would be able to smash a lot with the scutum in such a situation- you do not want to upset you comrades shields if packed tightly, and you do not want to advance two paces in a hard smash by 'greeting' an opponent with the scutum. What else can you do to create an opening using the scutum while stationary? Can it be lifted into a downward blow of an opponent, stifling them as you counter with the gladius? Can anything be done? I am not saying anything can be done- it very well may be it is just not workable.
Also- how does this work (scutum) countering with it against a side-strike (a horizontally placed blow at perhaps your hips or shoulder/head). Can you 'greet' this incoming strike sideways with the scutum without wearing yourself out?
Let us also be realistic. How does the scutum/gladius work when the scutum is resting on the ground? I would think such a thing is heavy and over a prolonged engagement this *could* happen. Alternatively- terrain is not an equal experience for all fighters in a line.
If your line is broken, how will you fight singly, without the help of a united organized "front"? If your facing/fighting one opponent and another comes in from a random, but unprotected angle, how do you turn/react with scutum?
We know by the Gladius' design that it wasn't for extending out past the shield in an exposed manner, there is no cross guard. Vaguely similar shield-centric fighting styles (Viking, Greek) also have no well developed hand protection. It isn't a matter of changing what you have now, it is a matter of finding the timing of using what you have now to keep from exposing your weapon arm as a target. Just thoughts.
Excellent!
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Post by Military History is 4 Me on Oct 6, 2013 12:03:19 GMT
Thx Beowulf...those are all great ideas...some of which i hadn't thought of....the hardest part of experimenting is finding enough Reenactors to practice those large scale formations...my main goal in making the video was coming up with a basic skill set or manual of arms that a basically trained legionary could utilize in various formations....i plan on making another one in the future and i'll take some of your ideas when i do it...thx again
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Oct 6, 2013 15:27:18 GMT
Do some YouTube searches on Pennsic and SCA, you get to see mass battles and large numbers of crazies doing shield wall stuff. Also look for Bridge Battles, those show some nice static shield wall and spear work. You can draw inspiration from that. Also, there are some Roman groups within the SCA that you can contact, yet another resource. But I have to agree with all of what Beowulf said too...
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Post by Military History is 4 Me on Oct 6, 2013 16:12:11 GMT
I have read numerous accounts of roman battles (1000 years worth). I will leave that discussion for the armchair generals and historians....Those discussions and debates will last for another 1000 years...lol...the main purpose of the video was to show a basic manual of arms training for a roman legionary....
Fighting with the right foot or left foot forward...im not dismissing any of that stuff...i haven't experimented with it yet...in my opinion the legionaries probably used both stances.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Oct 6, 2013 16:33:37 GMT
There are pro's and con's to either foot forward. With the scutum in the left hand, a left foot forward stance like you showed would brace the shield against leveraging attacks. Left foot forward may also reduce the reach of your right arm if your shoulders are not square to the shield plane... Right foot forward would make the shield susceptable to levering but potentially increase your right arm reach.
So if you stand with left shoulder and left leg into the scutum to brace for a charge or press, you lose some reach. But since your opponent is glued to your shield and trying to eat your face, by definition, he's in reach.
Just thoughts.
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Post by Beowulf on Oct 7, 2013 5:16:31 GMT
I always have a strangely hopeful point of view about this stuff because I am a HEMA person. Looking at some earlier scholars (Victorian, Industrial and some post-Industrial age) works you see things like "Medieval swords were often 15 pounds, blunt, and made of inferior iron and steels". This flies in the face of all we know now because of apathy on the part of the scholar. If giving a weight, shouldn't you weigh the objects? Our reality works on facts. There are medieval and later armours in museums with the padding intact, but it was difficult at one time to find any specifics about the subject. Apathy. Can you imagine curators and caretakers eating their lunch everyday near such objects and being so uninterested as to even turn over a shoulder plate and take a picture or write a paragraph about it? Why were they even in that field? So I am always hopeful that someone comes along who cares and uncovers just one more puzzle piece in a subject and then works with it, creating something permanent others can build upon in the future. We are all trying to uncover truth in an area of study that has been neglected and forgotten deliberately.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 12, 2013 10:26:39 GMT
Quote: Why were they even in that field? Nice job. Gives status and a chance for them to talk ,,down'' to the ,,public''. Arrogance. That mentallity reigns still today, even more so, since party politics play an ever larger part in these institutions. It is a money stream and they want their grubby little hands in there. If one wants to hear a load of nonsense, go talk with 90% of these people. Only a precious few are actually interested in their fields. A lot of research is done and published by so called ,,Amateurs''. That's the name given by ,,Academia'' to all researchers outside their realm, who might threaten the status quo, ergo might make them look the fools they are. Sounds harsh, but that is my experience, supported by people I know who actually work there. Infighting and backstabbing are the items of importance and landing, via these methods, of even more cushy jobs. People who have those jobs on merit are quite rare and feared by them. Welcome to the wonderful world of academia.
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Post by Military History is 4 Me on Oct 12, 2013 23:46:56 GMT
Thx
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Oct 13, 2013 0:27:53 GMT
awesome demo
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Post by MLanteigne on Oct 20, 2013 5:47:40 GMT
The only thing I would add is to turn your left foot to the side, otherwise it makes a good target. At AD 43 in Lafe and Castra Aestiva in Canada the feet became targets for spears and longer swords.
Also, the gladius shouldn't extend past the edge of the scutum, lest your sword arm be exposed. That alone would rule out an extended thrust with the right foot forward, unless you were one on one with your opponent.
Great video. Are you with IX Hispana?
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Post by Military History is 4 Me on Oct 29, 2013 9:46:23 GMT
Yes....i am a member of Legio IX Hispana
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