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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 17:22:25 GMT
Hi Everyone,
I am new here and am searching for more information on a sword that came into my possession. I can describe it to you as well as I can . . .
It has an inscription on the spine of the blade that reads (as well as I can tell) Mnufre Royale du Klingenthal 8bre 1826.
There are other stamps, for instance, the brass handle is stamped with the number 898, which is also stamped on the scabbard.
There is a B with a dot on top (crowned B?) and the number 47 in a similar rectangle as the 'crowned B'.
On the underside of the brass handle, where it joins the blade, there is '796 I' stamped.
On the 'lip' of the handle that curls toward the tip of the blade, there is an 'L' stamped.
Where the blade is attached to the handle, on the blade itself there are two stamps, one looks like an ampersand (&), which matches the ampersand on the bracket that holds the top ring on the scabbard. The second stamp I can not tell what it is.
Both rings and brackets on the scabbard are intact.
The leather handle and brass wrap are beautiful and look to be original (after viewing some of the similar swords online).
Can anyone tell me about this sword? It seems Klingenthal was a French sword manufacturer for many decades and their swords are very common. However I see many that are not as well-kept as this one. There is a minimal amount of pitting on the brass handle and on the blade. I can send photos of any of these marks or defects.
I would like to sell this item but think I better know more about it before letting it go to the lowest bidder.
Thank you for your help.
Sue Colas
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 17:50:25 GMT
Hello Sue. Welcome to the forum.
I can't tell you a great deal, since my knowledge of antiques is limited. However, I do know that Klingenthal was a sword manufacturer set up under Louis the XVth, and manufactured military and civilian swords from 1768 to the end of the 1800's.
As you probably know, your sword was manufactured in 1826, in October of that year. (8bre)
It is most likely a military sword, not a civilian one, since at the time of your swords manufacture civilian swords would have the mark "Coulaux frères à Klingenthal".
Apart from that I cannot say much. Some pictures posted here would go a long ways in determining the value of the blade. If you need assistance in this, I can help.
You may want to talk to Jonathan Hopkins or Glen Cleeton (known here as Hotspur) here on the forum. They're much more knowledgeable about this sort of thing then I.
-Cheers!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 17:52:32 GMT
Definitely a French military saber of some type. Photos would help immensely. I recommend posting this to the Antique & Military sword section at www.swordforum.com. If you post this at Sword Forum, be up-front about wanting to sell it--it is a much appreciated courtesy. In the meantime, check your private messages here and have a look at www.oldswords.com to see if you can find any matches. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 18:04:36 GMT
Thank you, DarkIntruder and Jonathan.
My husband is getting me set up with photos so I can post them here. Look for them in the next couple of hours. Any requests?
Sue
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 18:10:17 GMT
An overall shot of the sword (and the scabbard if there is one), and shots of the blade markings and inscription, and a close up of the hilt. Weather permitting, photos of swords tend to be clearer when taken outdoors rather than in (unless you have some fancy photo equipment and lighting).
I know much more about British swords, so I will not be a huge help other than telling you where you can find more information. You will find many more knowledgeable people at Sword Forum regarding French military swords, so I suggest posting there in addition to here.
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Post by hotspur on Feb 5, 2008 18:48:09 GMT
Jean Binck's page is a handy bookmark to save and return to. users.skynet.be/euro-swords/It is always nice to find old swords in good condition and not overcleaned or altered to hide true age. Some of the French sword patterns continue as official swords of their military, such as the mle 1822, which I am almost guessing is what you have. I should wait for pictures. It sounds like you have a trooper's cavalry sabre or straight sword (mle 1816?). An awful lot of the officer's swords from this manufactory had horn grips. Another trait of the officer's sabres was acanthus leaf decoration on the knuckle guard and hilt in general. The marks on the blade and elsewhere are sometimes called poincons and are inspectors marks. I really have but a superficial knowledge of these but there are others at SFI that could probably go futher with the specific markings. Cheers Hotspur; was considering one of these just the other day |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 21:01:04 GMT
Hello All
Sue asked me to send these links to the pics of the sword to the group.
[deleted links since they aren't working properly.]
Thanks!
EV
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 21:18:03 GMT
"Sorry, this GeoCities site is currently unavailable. The GeoCities web site you were trying to view has temporarily exceeded its data transfer limit. Please try again later."
This is the message I get when I click on the links.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 21:29:28 GMT
Thanks Jonathan!  Sue and I have to figure out how to upload it to the forum some other way. In the mean time... the sword looks very much like this one.  EV
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Post by oos3thoo on Feb 5, 2008 21:36:25 GMT
Dang... You guys seem to know everything and anything about swords!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2008 0:12:17 GMT
Thanks Jonathan! Sue and I have to figure out how to upload it to the forum some other way. In the mean time... the sword looks very much like this one. EV Try uploading your photos to a site like photobucket.com and then using the ![]() [/img] tags to display the photo in your post (as you did above). It is always nice to find old swords in good condition and not overcleaned or altered to hide true age. Some of the French sword patterns continue as official swords of their military, such as the mle 1822, which I am almost guessing is what you have. I agree with Hotspur. Can't wait to see some photos! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2008 22:12:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2008 23:24:13 GMT
Thank you all for your help with this item.
I am also trying to be more educated about the correct terminology in regard to this SABER :-). Help me with these and tell me the correct names . . .
The handle is called a hilt?
The three pieces of brass that swirl from the bottom of the hilt to the top are called branches?
Is this a two branch or a three branch? I want to say three but it seems it is actually two and the main one has a different name.
The part of the hilt that curved downward I called a lip. I am sure there is a proper name.
The very top of the hilt is called?
The plate where the hilt and the blade are joined?
I measured the blade alone and it seems to be 36.125 inches but I didn't follow the curve of the blade.
The overall length of the saber is 42.5".
My eyes are bad so if that doesn't sound right, I will re-measure using someone else's eyes.
Sincerely,
Sue Colas
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Post by hotspur on Feb 7, 2008 1:41:59 GMT
Hi Sue, Yes, this is the French Mle 1822. This is the pattern that was used as a model for the American Civil war swords and the U.S. M1840 that preceded it. Your terminology is pretty good. everything that is not the blade is the hilt. The handle part would be the grip. The very end often refered to as the pommel, or pommel cap. the blade part of the guard is often refered to as a counterguard. The main bow of the knuckleguard is sometimes called a bow, or guard. I would call it a two branch but it speaks for itself. Your sword seems in nice and attractive condition. I'm posting the following as an example only and not an absolute. This one is later and has been vigorously overcleaned. It has also had an additional marking done in electric pencil. Someone was either cataloging it, or it was for insurance ID/ similar. It is sitting at a dealer unsold for $550 (thereabouts). In some ways, I'm suprised it has not sold.  On the other hand, someone had a very nice officer's version of this pattern selling for about the same price, not so long ago and it was a bargain. The market can be a bit fickle. These are still an official pattern in France and they have not changed a great deal. Sometime in the 19th century, they went to one scabbard ring. Cheers Hotspur; still holding out for a different sabreAlso for reference, a German made example as used in the U.S. as our M1840.  Note minor differences in the hilt and blade forms. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2008 20:08:56 GMT
Look above ^ . . . I reposted the photos from photobucket (thank you, Jonathan, for the pointer) so they seem to work much better now.
Sue
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