Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 4, 2013 19:24:09 GMT
Hi. Just bought this Windlass military rapier from the KOA pre-owned section. Anybody know anything about it? Maybe a Del Tin blade? Way Back Machine was of no help other than KOA did not list it in it's earliest pages. Some KOA photo's:     Any info would be welcome. Cheers, Ulahn. |
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jul 5, 2013 0:26:07 GMT
For some reason I think I've seen that one before. I think Glenn C. might have it, and it might have been posted in a MyArmoury.com thread on 17th century swords----but that's just me thinking, and I've thought wrong in the past.
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Post by demonskull on Jul 5, 2013 3:37:33 GMT
Could you post the dimensions?
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Post by Grubnessul on Jul 5, 2013 12:24:05 GMT
I noticed that sword in the store the other day indeed. It's a pretty sword  |
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 5, 2013 19:28:57 GMT
Hi all.
The forum was down for the day, at least for me, in Europe, so I post this with some delay.
The dimensions are:
Total length- 43 3/8"
Blade length- 36 5/8"
Grip length- 3"
I will try to dig up that thread at myArmoury.
Thank you for your reactions sofar.
Cheers, Ulahn
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jul 5, 2013 20:36:10 GMT
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Post by demonskull on Jul 5, 2013 21:26:13 GMT
The one Glenn posted was called The Lady Lightning and was only made in a single batch of 10-12. I had one and while some of the parts may be the same I don't believe it to be a modification of the other. The OP's picture was of a different stock sword that appeared in their catalog for an extended period of time.
I have some of the older catalogs and I also have a photo gallery of Windlass swords I took about 6 years ago on an old computer. I believe I have a cd of it somewhere. I'll have to see if I can find either
I answer to one of the OP's question, I believe it was late 90's to early 2000's. This time period was after MRL stopped dealing with Del Tin.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 5, 2013 21:55:06 GMT
You mean this one?  Windlass Ladies rapier. It looks like it because of the grip, but the basket is different in details, as far as I can see. My notion of Windlass is that they re use certain style or design elements, so they replaced the pommel design, held on to the grip design and changed the basket design in details, so as to keep the general look with that openwork front plate. Also, the ladies has a much thinner blade. But they could be a set, a ladies and gentlemans version. Am I making sense here? Compare the turned ends of the guard of the German Bastard sword with those from the Novarra. So, my conclusions thus far are: The myArmoury thread dates from 2011. The poster of the Ladies rapier talkes about ,,a couple of years ago", so that would be around, let's say 2007-2008? Since the Military rapier does not show up in the KOA way back machine listings for those dates, it should be an earlier model than the Ladies. Problem is that the poster at myArmoury states that this model came in a small batch, so maybe KOA did not get any. If so, who got to sell from the small batch? MRL? Questions. Well,for now I am going to sleep. 12.00 hours here in Europe. Will do some Googling tomorrow for the Ladies rapier and see what turns up. Very good thread on myArmoury though! Thanks Kilted Cossack. Cheers, Ulahn. |
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Post by demonskull on Jul 5, 2013 22:15:02 GMT
Yes, Windlass sold the 10 last pieces. I said 10-12 because both Hank and Bruce had first dibs and could have each gotten one. They were advertised in the Limited section and if I remember correctly only went for $99.
As far as the mix and match, it was common for them to mix and match parts to come up with new styles with a reduced cost factor as they already had molds for the furniture. The Henry the 8th sword from the Tudors series is a good example. It uses the same pommel and guard from an early "Nobleman's" sword, just plated gold. I said early as there was at least one other Windlass sword that went by the name "Nobleman's".
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 6, 2013 6:55:20 GMT
Hi demonskull.
Thank you very much for your input!
It seems you are the man to turn to with any questions about Windlass models.
If I understand correctly, the Lady Lightning came in a small batch and the Military rapier appeared somewhere in the late 1990's, in greater numbers.
KOA first web page appeared in Autumn 1999 and it is not listed there, so KOA did not get it.
According to you, this Military came after the Del Tin/Windlass co-op, thus the Military had a production run of say 2 to 4 years and was sold at what was then MRL or at other retailers.
I hope you do not mind me asking for you to do some more digging in your archives? And when became MRL MRL? They changed their name somewhere?
The way Back Machine does not work well with MRL and Windlass just shows the same page when I feed it into the WBM.
There are more important things in life, I heard, but I am a tidy person and stuff like this just keeps nagging me. Oh and $99 for the Lady? Those were the days.
Thank you anyway, cheers, Ulahn.
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 6, 2013 7:07:20 GMT
Happy mistake! I enjoyed both threads very much and bookmarked them for future reference. Just go on to make mistakes like that. People might actually learn something.
Cheers, Ulahn.
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Post by demonskull on Jul 6, 2013 22:50:23 GMT
I can answer a few of your questions without looking for the catalogs.
First:
MRL 's first catalog was in 84, it featured only 5 swords and a few knives and daggers. All the pieces in that first catalog and the next several were Del Tins.
MRL was an offshoot of Atlanta Cutlery. The then owner of Atlanta Cutlery (Bill Adams) was friends with Hank Reinhardt and it was Hank's idea (push) to get MRL off the drawing board. Hank was very familiar with reanacting, SCA and was one of the first individuals interested in Historic European Martial Arts in the US. At the time there was virtually no place to get quality functioning European swords in the US. The few smiths making swords were either following the SCA events or were knifemakers charging ridiculous prices for overlong knives with very little knowledge on what was needed to make a sword. The late 70's thru the 80s were the heydays for knifemakers and financial experts picked custom knives as the best investment you make so prices on knives jumped to crazy heights The few knifemakers that made swords charged proportionatly ridiculous prices.
Obviously MRL caught on like wildfire so that the moderately priced swords (running $189 to 219) were constantly backordered after the first few catalogs. In order to expand the selection and maintain some sort of instock, MRL sought out other bladesmiths. Johan Schmidt from Austria, Chris Poor of A&A fame, were just a few.
Atlanta Cutlery had been using Windlass Steelcrafters for knives and knifemaking supplies for years, so they also turned the Windlass for medieval replicas. Windlass had been in operation for decades and could provide stock in quantity much more readily than any of the other suppliers.
Eventually this lead to a takeover situation apprxly 1991. This is conjecture on my part but I believe Windlass provided an ultimatum to either sell both companies to Windlass or they would stop supplying, which would have the effect of putting both Atlanta Cutlery and MRL out of business. (This is not meant as a shot at Windlass it is a accepted business practice).
When Windlass took over MRL they quickly discontinued dealing with the other suppliers so their goods were the only ones represented. This lead to an increase in their (Windlass') production and a major decrease in their quality control. It took almost three years to regain much of MRl's reputation they lost during the QC crisis.
Museum Replicas never changed their name and eventually they became distributors for some Cold Steel products.
While some may scoff at MRL products, MRL lead the way for the higher quality sword companies. They consistently provide a decent entry level reproduction and change their lineup to keep up interest.
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 7, 2013 8:41:18 GMT
Hi demonskull.
Well, this is a surprise!
Thank you for making the effort to enlighten, not only me, but the forum in general, about the history of Atlanta Cutlery, MRL and Windlass.
I picked up some snippets of this, tucked into posts, one line here, one line there, but this is the first time I can have an overview of the whole business between these three entities. Thank you very much indeed!
So mr. Reinhardt and Adams were the founding fathers of the sword world as it is today. Effects of free, private enterprise for you!
One thing I must say is, that the way, as you describe it, Windlass took over MRL, looks very much like strongarming to me, but we do not know all the facts.
That would mean sifting through a wagonload of paperwork, lawyers files, faxes and more important, personal notes, often much more revealing.
Probably long gone by now.
If you feel it is to much to dig up that cd, I say, that after getting this shiny nugget of info, I am happy to call it a day.
The Military rapier was made in the late 1990's. Good enough.
I mean, where does it stop? Does knowing my sword was finished at 3 PM, Thursday 21-7-1999, by mr. Gundhal, of Rashtaparry Road 42, Apt. 8, make it any better? Naw, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.
Cheers, Ulahn.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 11:19:33 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 7, 2013 12:01:30 GMT
Well thank you very much Edelweiss!
Cherry on the cake.
I have bookmarked the URL's, will read them later on.
Cheers, Ulahn.
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 9, 2013 21:16:49 GMT
Well, yesterday I emailed MRL to see if they would be so kind as to help me, it just kept nagging.
As I am not in their database as a client, plus the fact that I bought the sword from KOA, I thought there would be little chance of MRL responding to my request.
Boy, was I wrong!
An hour ago mr. Chaudhuri answered:
The sword was called the Military sword rapier and was based on an original in the Museum of Prague. It went on sale in 1996.
It must have had a short production run of 2 to 3 years, because I could not find it in 1999 with the wayback machine.
Problem solved!
Thanks again to all who replied to my post and to mr. Chaudhuri, who took the trouble to delve into his archieves.
Cheers, Ulahn.
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Post by Elrikk on Jul 9, 2013 21:53:00 GMT
Did you have it sharpend by KoA?
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jul 10, 2013 2:16:18 GMT
Ulahn:
Awesome news all around. It's nice that they helped out with the information.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 10, 2013 10:36:01 GMT
Elrikk: No, I plan to sharpen it myself.
Kilted Cossack: Yes, it is very nice of mr. Chaudhuri.
Things like this keep my cynical tendenties in check.
Cheers, Ulahn.
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