Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 19:43:05 GMT
Yes, a longsword has a better chance at a low leg shot as the shield is coming in. He will have a short window of opportunity to take the low-leg shot before the shield is on top of him. I have tested this in non-sca fighting. The way to charge the longsword is with shield high and sword low guarding the leg. The longsword might still power through the sword but the longsword might not have enough inertia left to do damage. If the longsword can run backwards just as fast as the shield in coming in, he might get a few more chances to power through the low-leg sword block. Problem is that running backwards while swinging is hard and requires a smooth and even running area.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Jan 2, 2008 20:01:12 GMT
The way I see it is to go for the ankles or the fingers. Remember that bsket hilt doesn't belong and some of the best longsword shots are the schnitts, the slices, to the fingers and hands. And a competant longswordsman would have no problem packpedaling, if one considers that all of the shots thrown can be done 1.) on either side of the body and 2.) going forwards as well as backwards. The best way for a shieldsman to kill a longswordsman is to lock up his sword with your shield...So the longswordsman needs to play the range game. Or go ringen on your bum
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2008 9:24:29 GMT
Find some more non-sca Sword & Shield vids. It is a good exercise for me to analyze. It makes me more aware of what I am doing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2008 16:09:14 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2008 22:48:23 GMT
That was interesting Jonathan. Thanks for posting.
As you said, it is a demo rather then sparring. The techniques they are using focus on exploiting the vulnerability created with a center grip shield. That is, hitting the edge and flipping the shield open. They kept there shield leg behind the shield and defended unless they stepped in real close. They only opened their shield up as part of a strategy of hitting the other person shield edge to cause the flip. The demo is valid. We can not know how things would work out if they were sparring. I mean their execution, not the validity of the techniques.
I also noticed how thin the shields are, which made these shields maneuverable. I would guess they weight 4 lbs. I do now know how historically accurate that is. If that is historically accurate, those shields would not hold together long in a shield wall with all the pushing and shoving. If historical viking shields were thicker and heavier, it would be a lot harder to execute some of the moves we saw. They spent a lot of time with there arms extended. I use a 3 lb buckler sometimes in rapier fencing. I use it extended and punch blocking. I can tell you that after 5 minutes it feels like a ton. For that reason I prefer dagger.
Another question I have is: Did Vikings ever use a forearm strap? If so, the shield flip would not work on all of them. They would have to guess who has what strapping.
I have fought people who use center grips. Most of the time you can cause a shield flip just by hitting their shield edge with your sword too. It gets real ugly if they go up against a polearm swinging with both hands.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Jan 6, 2008 23:04:17 GMT
1.) Historically viking shields were pretty darn light
2.) There is no evidence of any arm straps.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2008 23:44:53 GMT
It is my understanding that viking shields tended to be light and thin, and that most replicas are thicker because it would be a pain to constantly replace your shield. I am not familiar with viking tactics, so I am not sure if a shield wall would have been employed in battle. Also, viking shields were gripped in the center. I recommend reading the entire thread I linked on SFI as it has a lot of good information, and some of Stephen Hand's posts are relevant to your questions, Tsafa. I am glad you enjoyed the videos!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2008 4:43:50 GMT
Part of the difference between SPADA, or any other manual extrapolated on fectbuchs, is that we have almost no manuals referring to fighting in harness. Really, the SCA draws the line fairly well for its "armour standard". When your only solid defense is your helm (which covers from your brow up), and your shield, you use it. Several fighters I know abhor basket blocking, dont really throw wraps, and can fight from any range. It is quite a bit of what people around you do, which influences your perception. Haven't gotten a chance to watch the video, so cant comment right now.
Yes, Anglo Saxons did use shieldwalls. You need lots of buddies around to use 28-36" rounds in a wall though.
PS. Longsword in SCA doesnt need to always backpedal. There is an important aspect in the middle to inside game. Personally I love fighting longsword with at least one foot inside my opponents shield (usually bashing him at the time).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2008 5:03:57 GMT
PS. Longsword in SCA doesnt need to always backpedal. There is an important aspect in the middle to inside game. Personally I love fighting longsword with at least one foot inside my opponents shield (usually bashing him at the time). That is interesting. When you have time I would like to hear more on this. Do you have any video? Usually when I get that close and put my shield on their hilt, they can't generate enough power for a good shot. I play "stickyfingers", staying on their hilt, while throwing off-sides and high/low wraps. A few really good fighters will throw their body into my shield to keep their hilt free. They will turn their sword to my sword side (to block my sword) and try to cut back with the short edge. Sometimes they get through. For those not aware of the "armor standard" that Oswyn mentioned, in the SCA we are all assumed to be lightly armored in mail with Norman style headcaps. All head shots must be below the eyebrow or they don't count. Blows must be hard enough so that they would hurt through mail. Some guys actually wear a gambson and mail. They get nasty bruises. I prefer to wear heavier armor.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2008 20:04:30 GMT
Actually, even if they hit above the brow, with swords they still count.
Realistic Armour Standard for the SCA= First Crusade Nobleman.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2008 20:44:59 GMT
Not sure of the ettiquite of double-posting here, but I have more time to explain.
Disclaimer: I understand this would not always work in real-world where grappling is allowed.
My greatsword technique (one-on-one) is to assume close to a Liechtenaur stance of Plow, with my hands sitting about the level of my right hip, sword mostly vertical. Left-foot forward. Wait for them to come in swinging, as I stand my ground. Simply block and push their shot off the line, while riposte-ing into a shot, usually behind their shield, or over it. Keep stepping forward through the shot, watching the fear in their eyes as they realize you arent backing up. At that point, you need to use footwork to put their shield between you and them. Block with your quillions, and right above them. Use your body to muscle their shield apart. Wraps are slow to develop, and you need to realize how to move your body to rob those shots of their power. Backing into a wrap, or getting out of the "sweet spot" for the wrap by moving forward. Keep your sword short enough to allow you to wrap one handed if neccesary (love seeing the buy eyed look when they get hit in the back). Always carry a backup weapon, and make sure you can draw and stab without thinking. Check the placement and holding of the weapon, to make sure it doesnt fall out, and is hard for your opponent to grab.
Keep in mind you have about 15 sec to kill your opponent or get the h*ll out of there. Throw a shot which moves their shield into them/their weapon, and back out safely. Rinse and repeat.
Melees are a completely different story.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Jan 7, 2008 20:47:12 GMT
Ettiquite here is: Have at it as long as it doesn't get too excessive or isn't something rather worthless.
(Oswyn, VERY good post, thanks for that!)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2008 8:33:00 GMT
Actually, even if they hit above the brow, with swords they still count. Realistic Armour Standard for the SCA= First Crusade Nobleman. I don't know what kingdom you are from but in the East kingdom it has to be on the face-grill level going all the way around. A lot of people will accept hits on the top of the head if they are hard enough, but that is a personal thing. I myself accept hard hits to the top of the head if I can feel them down my spine. We assume an open face grill, so thrusts to the face don't have to be as hard as the rest of the body.We call it "positive pressure" to the face. Other then that, East has very high hitting calibrations. Interesting post about how you deal with shields. How long have you been fighting? If you don't mind my asking.... What kingdom? What rank? Do you have any videos you can share?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2008 16:24:53 GMT
Been fighting for about 4-5 years now. AFAIK, East accepts cuts to the top of the head as normal calibration, just like everyplace else. I just looked through your Marshall's Handbook, and Conventions of Combat, and V.C.1 and III.C.3 seem to indicate you have a local custom going on that is not in the rules. You might be getting thrusts and hits to the face confused. I know at Pennsic, no one had problems with hits to the top of their heads.
No real video of me. If you want to watch a polearmsman who fights inside, with the same kind of ideas, watch Sir Corby of Atlantia.
BTW, Meridian. But half of my shire is transplanted Atlantian.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2008 3:48:06 GMT
Very cool video. I watched the whole thing several times watching the style and for any strikes that would not be legal or used in the SCA. I did not see one thing that was not SCA legal other then the amount of armor and steel weapons. They are more lightly armored then SCA so they can move more fluidly. They are also hitting with less force because of the lack of heavy armor so that allows for a more easy recovery. That is all well and good, I do the same in my WMA and rapier practice. It is good to train under many different conditions. You know the bare min. armor for SCA combat would be less total then what they are wearing. Yes the helmet would be heavier...but you don't actually need a padded jack...just kidney belts, cops, gorget, steel toed boots and wrist and hand protection. It's not horribly bad...nobody minds a bloody lung every once in a while because you took on the king with such a rig with no shield right(yeah I deserved that one)? On the plus side, nothing improves your shield work quite like not having any armor...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2008 21:29:51 GMT
On the plus side, nothing improves your shield work quite like not having any armor... I agree, but its a cost/benefit thing. With more armor, I can do 8 fights at practice rather then just 3. I can go to the gym the next day too and also do a rapier practice later that week. With less armor... you fight once a week and that is all you do.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2008 11:00:26 GMT
I agree, but its a cost/benefit thing. With more armor, I can do 8 fights at practice rather then just 3. I can go to the gym the next day too and also do a rapier practice later that week. With less armor... you fight once a week and that is all you do. You know, I did about 10-15 fights a practice in bare min armor twice a week. I have a slightly high pain treshhold though. But still, I never though it was THAT bad until fighting my 6'4" 280 lb norweigian(he looks like thor...no really) king with no shield (no really greatsword...againt him...not one of my brighter ideas...but nobody else would fight him using greatswords). That was just asking for it...really. But it did make me get more armor .
|
|