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Post by rammstein on Jan 2, 2008 3:18:11 GMT
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Jan 2, 2008 3:33:51 GMT
yeah their method looks good and fairly smooth....but why would you say that SCA fighters wouldnt be as skilled as these?
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Post by rammstein on Jan 2, 2008 4:01:08 GMT
Too clunky, agressive, and suicidal, and far too restricted. Sort of like what fencing is to rapier combat (but not that extreme). The problem is, it recreates medieval sword and shield with only modern experience. This means that the SCA really bases their combat on what works in a modern since, which is sort of counter productive as we can't reproduce a real battle safely and especially not without studying period techniques. I'm sort of wondering whether this is a better demonstration, you're right, it does seem a LOT more fluid, and they actually use their weapons distance instead of running in shield first, each fighter standing up as tall as he can throwing shields into each others face while throwing wraps...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 4:11:10 GMT
I'm interested in that style of sparring. The seem to be using metal swords (steel or aluminum, I can't tell.), but with only padded tunics and fencing masks. Granted, it isn't at full speed, and they're being careful to pull back. It looks quite good. I really need to get myself a shield. I also wish there was a way to incorporate leg shots in sparring safely. So many time when I watch sparring videos, I think "Damn, I could have gotten that guy's leg right there."
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Jan 2, 2008 4:13:45 GMT
do they do one on one bouts in the SCA or are they generally battle re-enactments and melees? i do like their calculated and decisive strikes in this video
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Post by rammstein on Jan 2, 2008 4:14:53 GMT
Typically 1 on 1, but they do a fair share of melees as well.
There are many things you can learn from the SCA, but limits need to be drawn on just "how" much.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Jan 2, 2008 4:18:38 GMT
yeah i agree with that...one has to learn and practice technique then take it into a combat situation...not the other way around...but reading some SCA sites i understand the more experienced fighters will teach you at these events no?
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Post by rammstein on Jan 2, 2008 4:22:19 GMT
I'm very critical of the SCA, but I remain very fond of it. One of the things that I love is, as you pointed out, people's willingness to teach. It's common the great fighters will help out a beginner and teach them things that would otherwise be hard to learn by themselves.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Jan 2, 2008 4:32:59 GMT
i think though that if these guys took their skills to an SCA event nothing would change. its all about the individual...their training technique. some individuals may be clunky and undisciplined in their art but this shouldnt cast a shadow on the skills of al the members. what do you think?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 4:36:53 GMT
SCA combat imposes many regulations due to safety. No grappling, certai illegal shots, ect.
I think the result would be that same if a fencer trained in historical methods fought a sport fencer in a sport fencing match. The sport fencer uses no technique, just angrily rushes and stabs. I think the most complex move I've seen in a sport fencing match is a parry riposte.
Not that I'm saying SCAer's have no technique. It's just, different, suited to adapt to the guidelines. I love the SCA. It gets many people involved in the study of history, which is a wonderful thing.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Jan 2, 2008 4:49:35 GMT
DI, is there any where in Canada to participate in SCA? i haven't found anything
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 4:55:57 GMT
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Jan 2, 2008 5:04:09 GMT
thanks DI...wow theyre even some going on back home in Port Alberni and Nanaimo....I had no idea they even did this out there
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 6:15:24 GMT
Ramm: I thought you abhorred actually using swords for their intended purpose? So why are you having a go at the SCA when you don't actually do any practical training? Just like anything in life some groups are good and some are bad but I think it is rather cheap of you to be so opinionated about something that you obviously have a bias against. Have you been waking up on the wrong side of the bed for the last little while mate? Your posts have been degrading from interesting and well thought out to cheap shots seemingly just for the sake of it. You aren't becoming a troll are you?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 7:38:06 GMT
Very cool video. I watched the whole thing several times watching the style and for any strikes that would not be legal or used in the SCA. I did not see one thing that was not SCA legal other then the amount of armor and steel weapons. They are more lightly armored then SCA so they can move more fluidly. They are also hitting with less force because of the lack of heavy armor so that allows for a more easy recovery. That is all well and good, I do the same in my WMA and rapier practice. It is good to train under many different conditions. The guy in the GREEN is doing a fine job of keeping the shield in front of him and moving his sword around the shield. Most of the shots are coming horizontally across the top of the shield. This is meat and potatoes in the SCA. This man has been well trained. He does step in with his right leg when he attacks. The right leg comes out in front of the shield. Thats a prime target and a weakness in his style I would exploit. The guy in the GRAY is opening his shield up to strike every time. He is making a bad mistake of moving the shield rather then the sword. A few times it seems like the shield was behind him. There is no point in having a shield if it is not in front of you. He is actually exposing himself even more because he is leading with his sword leg the whole time. I would take that leg in a second. Sword and shield is clearly not his primary form, but I respect him for getting out there and trying or perhaps he is testing a new style. They don't grapple because to do so means you must drop either your shield or your sword. The other person will just run you through. The shields are attached to the arm at two points, so taking the shield off to grapple means you will probably be dead before you have even fully removed it. I don't suggest you drop your sword to grapple either. They don't take any low leg strikes because they are pretty much out of range. I mentioned before that they missed many opportunities at upper leg strikes that were with in sword range. Any strikes above the knee would have been SCA legal too. All in all, a good fight. Don't mind my picking it apart, I do this every week with my own fights that I record. That is how you get better. You make mistakes and learn from them. p.s. Karma to Bloodwraith
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 11:03:23 GMT
Tsafa: The guy in gray probably watched too much troy, where brad pitt is dancing around with his shield in an interesting and painful position but it looked cool. I agree with your assessment of the video, there are changes that could be made on both their parts but good on em for having a go. It is very easy to criticise things when you have no experience or understanding. Read as many books on the subject as you like, nothing will ever beat the practical hands on experience. If I were fighting either of those guys I see one very very obvious win, take the thigh and you cripple your opponent (not talking about literally here guys.) The guy in the green seemed quite accomplished and he moved properly, you could see that he was slightly on the balls of his feet in his movements and that he flat footed and slid where he needed to. I had the front foot and slide thing drilled into me quite heavily. On the grappling side, there was some interest in that in my re-enactment group and we went through some disarms and things, much like what I do in my close quarter combat that I do so that makes it easy enough, right up until you stand in front of a guy who is seven feet tall and built like a brick s**thouse and you realize you have to take a sword off him and he doesn't want to give it to you. I prefer to take knives off people, safer for a given value of safe Oh and is it just me or do they seem to hop around alot? They spend alot of time without having one or the other foot on the ground, that is really odd to watch.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 2, 2008 14:02:21 GMT
In many grapples of the fechtbuchs, the sword is dropped.
I hope I'm not becoming a troll, this post wasn't intended to be degrading. 'tis a simple question, and so far I see what everyone has point out. Personally, I also agree that the guy in green was doing a really fine job.
And, BW, I've said already I don't "abhor" martial arts. I'm in the middle road or liking or disliking. Also, I actually do have some experience in SCA fighting. So it's just just armchair criticism from my behalf. You'll find that the majority of WMA students are even more biased than I. However, I don't really consider myself all that biased. I see many faults in the SCA, however I also see that their strengths far outweigh their negatives. eg: Name ANY other historical group that one can feel so immersed in. In ARMA, no matter what, you're always going to feel like a pansy in a red shirt - that's just how the atmosphere is. But in the SCA, you just feel like you're "there." It's a hard feeling to describe.
Anyways, I've said before, I've got my thumbs up for the SCA - but that won't stop me from criticising it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 19:29:28 GMT
Bloodwraith, I looked at the video again with an eye on movement. It is too short for me to say if they are moving too much or too little for their individual tactics. There would be nothing wrong with more or less movement if it is purposeful. I have fought people who are very good "attrition fighter". They will take snipe shots at me from just out of range perhaps dropping their shield a little as bait. They want to get me to chase then in the hopes that I will open my shield in the process, or run past them in a turn and expose my side. Other people just sit there conserving energy and wait for you to come to them, while resting their shield on their knee and sword on shoulder. In this video the guys have no armor, so being active is not as tiring. If they had 40 lbs or armor their style might change. If you watch my rapier videos, when I am unarmored I move a lot more too.
The one suggestion I would make to the guy in the Green, is when he decides to step around with the right leg, he should be closer. He should position that right leg under his opponents shield. By doing so he will be using his opponents shield to guard his leg. His opponent will not be able to see the leg and his own shield will prevent him from striking it. An experienced fighter will see the shift in the shoulders as he steps in and know that the leg is there. He might step back to get it.
On the issue of dropping the sword to grapple, in the fightbooks you don't do that until you already have your opponent locked with one hand. You drop the sword only when you have created a situation where he can not hit you with his sword. It is a lot easier to let go of a longsword then to unstrap a shield.
In a situation where a longsword is fighting a sword & shield guy, it makes some sense for the longsword to use one hand to tug on the shield. That is SCA legal too. It never works out well, because the shield is usually trying to run down the longsword. The shield grab usually fails and the longsword ends up in a worse position. Most longsword guys don't make much use of this method.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 2, 2008 19:32:28 GMT
THe longsword would be more effective if toe shots were legal You sword & shield guys have got life easy ;D Also, the dropping the sword thing is more prevelant in longsword, I've yet to see it used or mentioned in sword & shield. I just thought I'd point it out as dropping ones sword in the right situation can be very helpful.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 19:39:29 GMT
I just thought I'd point it out as dropping ones sword in the right situation can be very helpful. Yeah. When the guy's on the ground with you on top of him. Where's my rondel?
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