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Post by evo on Jun 7, 2013 21:16:16 GMT
Greetings all, Obviously new here in terms of interfacing this way. I have scoured the website and boards for a while but figured I could get more direct input based upon my questions. I'm in the market to have a custom blade made. I'm not a first time buyer but I am when it comes to the custom processes. I currently own a Golden Oriole Katana & Wakizashi which have served only as expensive & well cared for wall-hangers. I also own a Sibert Comanche Long. That actually sees use. So up to bat first. I'm in absolute love with the "Damascus" / folded look. Let's just say I was planning to use this to cut medium & soft targets with, am I truly at any heightened risk of the blade deforming than a non-folded? What has been your experience with a SBG custom? I'm definitely interested but I have a very specific design. Are SBG customs made entirely to order, even if a part should not be listed? Or in regards to dimensions other than Nagasa? As to have many options open, are there other quality manufacturers I should also consider? This is a non-pertinent question to the meaning of this post. Out of curiosity, how many times would you venture to say this blade was folded? Picture attachment Thanks for your time! Attachments:
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Post by Valandur on Jun 8, 2013 0:15:43 GMT
Welcome Evo I'm pretty new here so I won't be of much help, I wanted to say hello though. The swords market is TOTALLY different then it was 10 years ago, in many ways, for the customer, its better. You certainly had to look to find places that could do a custom sword and I bet it would have been expensives! :? I've read what info there is on the SBG custom katana, what this tells me is they really made the effort to ensure that every sword has the absolute best setup possible for the PP (price point) the sword is placed in. As far as altering the blade to a non standard blade type,I have no idea if that's possible, someone here will certainly be able to answer the Q. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of these, they seem like great value for the cost. I'm sure you've been around long enough to know that what's being sold on Ebay is not "Damascus" steel, its folded steel. Whats the difference? You might ask. Well I don't have anything linked that would easily explain the differences, maybe someone here does I know many people have experience with the folded steel blades and hopefully will share what they know. The blade s black so it's hard to see them, but a sword I bought recently is the folded type. I've not cut with it yet. If you don't mind me asking, how do you want your blade design to be, or what difference is there between the blade you want and a standard blade? I believe I saw a folded blade on a video from the SBG site. I'll see if I can find the link again and post it here. As an option in the event that the SBG custom can't do a one off blade, a member just did a deal with and he got 2. Scimitar blades built to his spec's for like $300 a blade, which is a Great price!
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Post by adamthedrummer on Jun 8, 2013 3:21:20 GMT
Sbg customs are built by selecting parts from a list of options...folded blades cost $60 extra but look awesome...some really nice tsubas in the lists. Colour choices are pretty wide too. Blade shapes are pretty much the same I believe..no options on amount of sori I don't think. Huawei might do custom blade configurations. :-)
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Post by Timberwolf on Jun 8, 2013 3:57:07 GMT
Hiya, Evo. My first Harley was an Evo, but I digress. Anyways, I think you're really asking about semi-custom options? If you throw some extra money at quite a few of the names you see around here, they will make a nice one-off sword for you. I just read that Ricky at might do that, and he is very highly regarded around here. Then there's Huanuo, Kaneie, Zhui Feng (Feilong), Huawei, and ST-Nihonto. I think they all have a good name around here. Heck, the more "product line" guys might do something if you can sweet talk them into it. Then there's the question of money, how much do you want to spend? For $1000 or less, those are all good choices, as far as I know, and some of them do a lot more. If you want REAL custom work? :LOL: For $1200 to $5000, you can get anything but a nihonto. Howard Clark and that class of people are on that upper end. Kaneie runs the spectrum as well as Bugei and others. Then, of course, there's nihonto.
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Post by evo on Jun 8, 2013 17:59:04 GMT
Hey guys, thanks for the replies. Here's my design made to what SBG offers for customs, obviously some things aren't officially offered so that's why I was curious if anyone had experience breaking out of the presets. I basically ended up just photoshopping a picture, coloring it how I'd like it, and then the specifics as text. Three things that might be a sticking point for SBG to accept this design: I have custom measurements on the piece. The saya is in a color that isn't officially offered. And the same goes for the rayskin. Here's a picture with all of the details: Attachments:
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Post by Timberwolf on Jun 8, 2013 21:02:40 GMT
You'll probably have to find someone else to build that. I believe that the new SBG Customs are limited in their options so that Paul could keep the cost down for us. I might be wrong, and I'm too lazy to look right now, but go read all that again. If you're a taller guy, a 29" nagasa will work. However, I think the 14+" tsuka will cause you problems. Also, white ito will be pretty for about 5 minutes! But it looks like you're getting a good start, everything else looks fine. What is that blade construction?
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Post by John Kenshin on Jun 8, 2013 21:12:25 GMT
You can also try www.sinosword.com for a custom sword. I ordered my first custom from them and it was reasonably priced. I should be getting it by the end of next month I hope.
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Post by evo on Jun 14, 2013 0:14:03 GMT
So a quick update.
I contacted inoswords.com, and it looks like right now the cost would run me $417. I have also contacted buyiaito.com and still waiting to hear back from them.
From some correspondence, I'm hearing differing things regarding the pattern-weld for the "Damascus" style look.
Mr. Kane from sinoswords.com has said that the hada grain will be very fine on 1095, but will be more noticeable on 1060 or lower. I talked to Steve at Fenris forge, and he said 1095 should be pretty noticeable, especially compared to any other typical steel. Steve may have more experience with pattern-welding as some of his work on his site are really outstanding.
Can you guys clarify some things for me off the subject of pattern-welds. Assuming both blades are maru construction, what type of hardening is preferred for 9260? What about 1095?
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Post by adamthedrummer on Jun 14, 2013 1:43:06 GMT
9260 can go either way, 1095 usually is dh but can be spring tempered so doesn't really matter. That being said 9260 is often th. :-)
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jun 15, 2013 5:08:22 GMT
Hello, friend. Here is a nice, brief and easy to understand explaination of Damascus and pattern welded steel. www.thearma.org/essays/damascus-steel.htmlThe steel shown in most low-cost "Damascus" steel is neither. It is folded, and an acid etching gives it its Damascus look. Folding modern steels does not lead to a better blade, as they are very pure to begin with. Folding was originally done to better spread carbon throught a blade, creating a better, tougher steel. However, as folding and pattern-welding is a fairly high-level skill and can easily be botched, you do run a somewhat higher risk of getting a blade with unseen internal flaws in the steel. Pattern-welding and folding are different in that a pattern-welded blade is comprised of multiple steel types, such as 1060 and 1095. Folded blades are a single billet of a single steel that has been folded several times. As you can imagine, pattern-welding is more difficult, thus more expensive. 9260 is better when TH. Giving a 9260 blade a DH strips it of all those hightened levels of toughness. A well done DH 9260 blade is said to be on par with a good 1060 blade. 1095 looks best when DH, but is slightly tougher when TH. I'd personally opt for a DH in 1095. Fairly tough and very good looking. The hada on a 1095 vs. a 1060 blade will be fainter. The acid used to etch works more drastically on 1060 because it is relatively softer. However, 1095 generally shows a very nice hamon. Much nicer than a 1060 or 9260. I'm not an expert, so don't take my word as law, hahaha. Sorry if I went over something that's already been explained.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jun 15, 2013 10:34:33 GMT
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Post by evo on Jun 17, 2013 18:25:31 GMT
Great article and insight. It answered a bit more of my unasked questions regarding current day "Damascus" appearance. I now have other questions as a result though. With the acid etching process, is it known to be detrimental to a blade in terms of reliability? I watched this video after I read your post: The results of his knives are really something, and that's more or less the result I'm seeking in this custom project but with the ability for the blade to be fully functional - not just a show piece. If you watch the video at the very beginning he says he's using a "Damascus" steel that is 416 layers of 4-5 different metals: 5160 spring, 203E, Nickel Alloy, 5200 ball bearing steel and 15N20 bandsaw blade steel folded 5 times. The acid will etch away a little more or less of those materials in different areas. From reading a bit, it seems like folded katana blades tend to hover around 8-12 folds. I guess what I'm a little hung up on is how the pattern comes to be in the first place. Is the pattern in Mike Carter's knives more prominent because the blade is made out of multiple metals? Is the revealed pattern because of smith technique? Is it a combination of both? At this point, I simply want to know because it's really interesting but I'm clearly missing something. Steve at Fenris Forge has done various patterns on his knives that all are very unique from each other but doesn't quite detail on how he crafted them that way. I have contacted st-nihonto about making my custom design and have been replied to. I have also tried Huawei (with no response). I know some of these ebay sellers have multiple names. Do you know if the one you linked is his/her own individual manu/seller?
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Post by adamthedrummer on Jun 17, 2013 20:33:33 GMT
Forgot to mention Ricky at ... he may be able to do something for you but folded or damascus type I don't know, his forum handle is dadaochen. :-)
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Post by uchiha998 on Jun 18, 2013 1:00:04 GMT
That was well put evo. I couldn't explained all that as well you have. One thing I would like to add:
I've noticed recently that more DH blades, especially the 1095 and higher carbon steels, are tempering the mune hardness closer to that of the ha hardness. For a while every DH katana I saw was HRC40 on the spine and HRC60 on the edge(approx.). Now I have seen some(really just a select few) that are keeping the spine a little harder about 50HRC. This seems to make the blade more resilient and less likely to take a set. Yet the edge is still nice and hard. Harder than most TH edges. The 1095 beater is a good example. It has 50HRC mune and it is well known that it is a very durable sword, I still have not heard of anyone that had one take a set. I always keeping the swords spine softer was better as it made the steel more flexable, I suppose that is true, but I'm realizing now that isn't really a good thing because if the edge can't flex with the spine then that is sure to cause a set. I just noticed this recently and it is probably something that many people already know but then I wonder why more smiths do it. Anyway I'm somewhat convinced that keeping a harder spine is what makes a good durable DH beater that takes on hard or heavy targets as well the light and medium ones. I would like to know what the disadvantages of the harder spine are. I'm sure there is something or else why wouldn't everyone temper their DH blades this way?
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Post by adamthedrummer on Jun 18, 2013 3:12:01 GMT
I think its likely due to a few reasons, mainly that its more technical to create this temper compared to most production dh katana, and I think you get a more dramatic hamon with more hardness difference(but that's just my thoughts). The 1095 beater doesn't have a dramatic hamon at all( at least mine doesn't ), plus I suspect its a new direction for smiths to try. :-)
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Post by uchiha998 on Jun 19, 2013 17:40:58 GMT
I think the 1095 beater has a fairly prominent hamon. I mean sure there are plenty of swords that have more prominent hamons but then again with acid etching being done before the swords are sold much of the time. the appearence of the hamon maybe affected much more by the amount of etching rather than the difference in hardness. Though it does make sense what you are saying. I have a Practical Plus Elite it has a 40HRC spine and I don't think its hamon looks as prominent as the 1095. The PPE does have more color difference between the hamon and the softer spine and flat if that is what you mean. I'm still convinced that the harder spine is part of what helps make the 1095 have durability to match the TH beaters.
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Post by adamthedrummer on Jun 19, 2013 19:13:37 GMT
I completely agree with you about the spring tempered spine, my 1095 is so stiff it is almost impossible to make it flex even a single degree...even pushing on the blade on the floor! And I bench press 350 pounds. But the hamon was only visible if you tilted the blade just right... its much better now actually, and its a great piece. Perhaps some older models we're more prominent, mine is the newest with EXTRA spring temper, and they are much stiffer than the last run of blades apparently. :-)
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jun 20, 2013 2:52:09 GMT
Hey again, Evo.
Yeah, it's a bit of both. Metals react to the etchant in different ways, becoming lighter or darker. A really skilled smith can make unbelievable patterns out of multiple steels, many times displaying different patterns on separate parts of a single blade. I assume they accomplish this with black magic.
If a blade were left in the etchant for too long, then yes, you would see things like pitting and rusting. Most modern forges have got it down pat, though. You may occasionally see something like an uneven finish, but rarely anything that would actually compromise the intergrity of the blade.
Do not trust any claims of a blade being folded 1,000,000 times, hahahah. This is a fairly widespread misunderstanding. A blade may be folded 10 or 12 times, creating thousands of layers, but any more than that will result in a very brittle blade.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jun 20, 2013 8:06:31 GMT
Blade folding is a mathematical progression - 1 to 14 gives you -
2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 Rather than creating a brittle blade you end up with homogeneous steel with the properties of all the steels involved.
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Post by stickem on Jun 20, 2013 14:29:26 GMT
Yes. When someone advertises a blade as being "folded 1,000 times" this does not mean what they are saying literally. A blade which has been folded 10 times will have 1024 folds in it. So when a description says this, it is indicative of a lack of understanding or outright dishonesty on the part of marketing folks
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