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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 4:19:44 GMT
I stumbled across these recently through a german friend of mine. A group in germany calling themselves Zornhau has posted this video and some others on You tube and I thought Id share them if they have not yet been shared. I've looked at their site as well, but for those interested it is all in german so unless you know german it may be tough. They use almost strictly the Liechtenauer and Ringeck methods and I acutally think they do a pretty good job at it. when I finish compiling the list, I will in order what each technique is and its relevant page in the Christian Tobler book for those of you that may have it. For those that dont and are serious about the German methods of the longsword(langschwert) I suggest getting a copy of Christian Toblers: Secrets of Medieval Swordsmanship. An excellent book indeed, a personal bible of mine. For you nay sayers of tobler...well....come here and say nay! Here is another one I found on browsing. I dont know the group or the guys and I prefer the first video over this one. But this shows some of the grapples and hands placements closer than the other so you can see them a little more clearly.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 19:30:35 GMT
The first vid has been posted and discussed here at SBG before. The second vid is new to me. It shows some nice grappling up close.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 22:01:54 GMT
Tobler is alright. I have his first two books, but I'm not a huge fan.
I'm not fond of how he grips his sword, nor of his leg-posture(torqued knees have never been worse). He's also very tense in many of his techniques, particularly in the shoulders. His blade placement against his opponent leaves one wanted as well in many instances.
That being said, if you've got a sound martial background, and don't just take everything he says and illustrates for fact, one can gleam a lot of good information from his books.
Anyway, more germans. I like their hats. They also have good distance and timing:
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Post by rammstein on Jun 13, 2007 22:09:37 GMT
That's nothing short of erotic I can't wait to get into longsword...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 22:58:00 GMT
Tobler is alright. I have his first two books, but I'm not a huge fan. I'm not fond of how he grips his sword, nor of his leg-posture(torqued knees have never been worse). He's also very tense in many of his techniques, particularly in the shoulders. His blade placement against his opponent leaves one wanted as well in many instances. That being said, if you've got a sound martial background, and don't just take everything he says and illustrates for fact, one can gleam a lot of good information from his books. There are teachers and there are fighters. Chris not too hard to beat at close range, but I pay attention in his classes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2007 7:20:31 GMT
adam, i do agree with with your points on tobler. I do like him however, but i think largley because ive also used other sources. using other sources gives you the understanding that you should FEEL the techniques moving slowly, not tensed and forced as you were pointing out with toblers method.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2007 23:07:58 GMT
It is very likely that Tobler has many moves that he has not put into his book. I think he was very conscience of what can be understood in a 2 dimensional environment and what can not. He was also probably on a budget as far as how many pages his book would be and also trying to be true to Ringneck. I am sure after so many years he, personally is very familiar with the close-in fighting of Fiore Di Libre and other masters. Just speculating.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2007 1:33:53 GMT
No matter how many moves he knows, he's not a good fighter if he can't stand up properly. I'm not trying to say I'm some uber-fencer, only that I see very obvious and grave mistakes in his presentation of the work.
I'm sure he knows the source material very well. But knowing something in your mind and being able to do it properly are two very completely different things. As stated, to someone with a sound martial background who can see past the bad pictures to understand the techniques themselves, his books offer a lot. I just think that a lot of beginners might be led astray by his lack of focus on the subtler and more ubiquitous aspects of the art.
If I had a choice between teaching someone good posture, good cutting principle, footwork, and how to hold a sword properly and how to move; vs. teaching them every technique in Liechtenauer's system, i'd gladly teach them the former. It's those things that make a good fencer, not how many techniques he knows.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2007 20:34:15 GMT
I'm still not convinced that some of the cuts, like Zwerch, from the German tradition are that deadly. It may be a move will create an opening, or draw first blood (for a "friendly" duel), but I still don't belive that it would put one's foe in half.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 20, 2007 21:05:50 GMT
As adam pointed out somewhere recently, you can die from severing an artery just as easily as getting cloven in two.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2007 22:15:39 GMT
It's important to point out that the meisterhauen generally only apply in unarmored combat(with some exception to the zornhau).
The zwerchau is a great cut that I've used to completely shear through half-inch thick cardboard with the Gen2 Black prince. If I was to hit your face at eye level with that cut, you'd be instantly out of the fight. Even if you managed to resist the searing pain and not clutch your eyes while rolling on the ground screaming in agony, the blood effectively blinds you. Keep fighting after that, and we'll see how deadly the zwerchau is.
I don't think that anywhere in any sword system, european or japanese, that anyone claimed to be able to cut someone literally into two even pieces.
Even in the japanese system with a strong migi-kesa-giri that goes from your opponent's left shoulder to right hip, you're not cutting all the way through them - just making a gash along that line about 2 inches deep to lacerate muscles, cut tendons, and sever arteries.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 20, 2007 22:35:45 GMT
Adam, even better than the face - consider what would happen if it struck the soft unprotected neck? That would be a pretty fast kill!
Speaking of cleaving people in weird ways...
In the 3 kingdoms period of china (about 200-230 ce or something like that...) Huang Zhong of Shu was said to have cut off the head and shoulder of Wu general Xiahau Yuan
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2007 0:47:08 GMT
Ok, you guys managed to get me to dust off my books. I can't quite remember all the German lingo. When practicing livesteel I use the English equivalent.
Zwerchhau (cross strike), is very effective if used at the right time. The strike is executed with either the short or longside horizontally. The key here is that you keep the elbows up and the sword-hilt over your head. As such it is a good counter to diagonal "strikes of wrath". It can easily drop into a plow guard should your opponent fake you with an undercut. The reason why it does not seem so effective as an offensive strike, is because most people hold there sword vertically. So they can block it with out having to move much. This situation can change as the fight progresses.
The German manuals don't cover much in the area of longsword against shieldmen. It is positively one of the most effective, if not the most effective, things to use against a shieldman. The strike is similar in nature to the horizontal snap. The Cross-strike can sail over the top of the shield to the exposed head. If the enemy has a headcap, you can angle the tip down and hit his neck. So fighting against a shieldman with a two-handed weapon, you should be making successive cross-strikes with an occasional legshot to draw his shield down and create openings for more cross-strikes. I would only use the short edge after blocking his blade with the long edge and then quickly cutting back with the short edge.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2007 3:29:18 GMT
It's better to explain the Zwerchau in terms of guard movements. All german longsword fencing(and italian for that matter) is merely transitioning between the key postures(or variations of the key postures).
Zwerchau is a strong transition into the guard of Ochs with the blade horizontal. The two easiest ways to do it are starting in Vom Tag or Ochs on the other side. Accompany the transition with a step and hip rotation and extend your blade to strike during the transition and BAM! you have a Zwerchau.
Wait for my Longsword guide to come back up... it'll be clear then.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2007 4:34:30 GMT
One must be careful not to become predictable when fighting longsword. In Liechtenauer/Ringeck's time only a select group of students knew his fighting methods. Same goes with Fiore and many other masters most of which never left us any manuals and we don't know. Today all of us are familiar with Ringneck and Fiore so I think we should not fall into the pattern of doing what we are expected to do.
When I practice with PVC against some other Ringneck buffs I look for text book patterns of attack and defense. One method of countering I have developed is not to fight in the same style in order to break the pattern that they are comfortable with. I mix in some of my later period rapier training. I fight off the longpoint with a slight bend in the elbows exclusively using range a series of thrusts, parries and disengages while using fencing footwork to constantly change the distance. I also throw in some cuts from the longpoint using the handle as a lever. This gives little warning vs a strike from Van Tag or Ochs. The strikes are not as powerful, but this is unarmored combat and they don't need to be. It reeks havoc with people who have only learned to fight one style. I still come back to ol' Ringneck too at some point but now my opponent is not sure what I am doing, and often looses track what he is doing himself.
This works good in PVC because the fighting tempo is faster. Near full speed. It does not work with livesteel because of the slower speed used for safety sake. At slow speed, your opponent has more time to think and adjust.
Edit: for those that are not familiar with Longpoint, it is a guard were you point you sword directly at your opponent. It is more common in fencing and referred to as "point in line". Ringneck is very specific about discouraging people from using it, which is why WMA people are baffled when I do.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2007 16:55:55 GMT
This works good in PVC because the fighting tempo is faster. Near full speed. It does not work with livesteel because of the slower speed used for safety sake. At slow speed, your opponent has more time to think and adjust. It's like going from tennis to badminton. Not really the same game, is it? That's why I get frustrated playing with boffer groups; all their strikes are light and don't require a big arc to score. So the techniques of defense change completely.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2007 18:18:43 GMT
O yes I feel the same way. The dynamics change considerably. In my old group(Adria) one was required to train/practice with shanai(spelling?) before going to live steel, regardless of actual experience. The movements, speeds and control and much different with the shanai than with an actual piece of steel. And while I like to train with wasters and shanai for saftey reason and to save on damage to my swords, one really must train as much as possible with the inteded weapon to be used.
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