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Post by hufford73 on May 27, 2013 4:03:51 GMT
Okay,
Ive been playing with the idea of making my own chain mail armor. I know butted is not the strongest, but I thought 14ga in 3/8" rings (4 in 1) would be a good start. So my Queston to you guys.
How effective would my chain mail be over a gambeson of course?
I will be praticing with blunt metal and/or wooden swords, full metal helms and good sturdy gloves.
one disclaimer here : Great Care is taken to control the contact, One must be capable of contoling the hit.
Thank you for your opinions.
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Post by hufford73 on May 28, 2013 3:45:32 GMT
if there is a moderator on please move this to the Armor section. I did not see it when I posted.
Sorry about that.
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Post by Onimusha on May 28, 2013 6:31:07 GMT
The gambeson is what absorbs impact. The maile just keeps the edge of the blade from cutting you. That being said, the added weight would provide a greater challenge.
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Post by Beowulf on May 30, 2013 2:27:38 GMT
Onimusha is right. Let me expand on this and break it down.
What are you practicing?
If this is WMA/HEMA then the point of it is to train slowly and carefully at first, doing preplanned techniques with a partner. Then as you accumulate skill your able to sit there, within the "danger zone" of someone's strike with your eyes open and calm. You learn to spot techniques, counter them, etc etc. The point of it is to hit without getting hit.
A gambeson will be hot, heavy and slow you down. As will the steel helmet. Maille on top of the gambeson will increase the weight, restriction and heat. The gambeson will deaden a blow to some extent, the butted maille won't do much other than weigh you down and might come apart against a strike since it is butted.
I can damage butted maille quite easily with one of my sharps because when it deforms the butted ends separate, creating holes as it delinks. With proper (or more proper) maille it is quite difficult to cut/stab through. The person wearing it is still going to get hurt, perhaps killed with a hard direct strike to the right spot.
I know WMA/HEMA and I have a riveted maille kit with great helm and all of that. I've got it to try out my WMA stuff in period gear. In it I am partially blind, slow, often sweating or on the verge of overheated. The only things I know of that it would help me against *on it's own* would be dog attacks and American Indian attacks from the 1700s- when their using stone tipped arrows. Maybe a modern knife attack, maybe not depending on the knife.
If you were going to the trouble of getting or making maille I would go with riveted, less repairs, less chance of failure, and something that you might want to keep later on in life, because it is "real maille", or "more real maille".
I do think it would be cool for you to make some squares of butted maille and see how tough it is against blunt or sharp steel weapons.
I think I would rather get sparring equipment than mess around with butted maille. No matter if I was doing WMA or whatever.
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Post by hufford73 on May 30, 2013 3:56:52 GMT
Thank you Beowulf. That is kinda what I thought too, I just wanted to verify with more experience people. I could go through the trouble of riveting chain mail but I just don't have that kind of time.
I have toyed with the idea of making some scale mail from a leather jerkin with hand made scales attached. Its more for fun, but I would like to spar in it with my buddy.
I would not risk my life to butted mail. I just thought it would be good enough to take a few hits from my sparing partner.
Again thanks for the greatly detailed answer.
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Post by Beowulf on May 30, 2013 13:51:52 GMT
I don't want to destroy your fun. I am obsessed with historically plausible stuff because I passed through the stages: read Tolkien as a kid, played with sticks, read more fantasy, got some bad stainless steel knives, got a bad helmet, got some bad armour, sparred with friends and did dangerous stuff, destroyed some bad (but real) swords, started Western Martial Arts, got good stuff, etc. At each of these points I might of gotten tired of it and lost interest and permanently abandoned it. But I didn't- so I have arrived here. So when you say "scale maille" someone like me will try and figure out what was real scale maille, make it or buy it and experience it. The whole thing is experiencing and having fun. So really what I am saying is if you think your going to be messing with this stuff for a while you might want to read up on what interests you. I've found out that the video games and the fantasy movies/books really don't do the stuff justice. The *real* maille and the scale maille (just two examples) are so much more complex and fascinating in real life than what you'll see in pop culture. So is the sparring. Real maille is riveted, so the links can be lighter. Butted maille needs to have beefy links to hold it's shape, because it need to keep it's own shape with the ends together, but it also has to be beefier than that to be strong enough to hang all it's buddies off of it and take that weight. Riveted has, well, a rivet, and that is keeping it closed. The link itself can get deformed and as long as the rivet holds it will stay together. SO it can be lighter. Look at these coifs: Butted: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... sile+Steel Rivited: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... Mild+Steel Butted=9 Lb. Rivited: 6 Lb. Think about a whole suit of either of these. Then think about the butted links you'll have to repair sometimes. But, you know what? Which is more fun? Which can you do? Can you buy pre-made real stuff, or do you have to make your own? You're not going to be dumb for doing the butted maille. You just won't experience "more real" maille YET. I keep saying "more real" because the riveted maille available is really not totally accurate either. The historical stuff is more complex than it looks and it is hard to reproduce. If you can find accurate maille it is VERY expensive, as in a shirt of it being car-purchase-expensive. cheers!
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Post by hufford73 on May 30, 2013 19:12:00 GMT
I understand, and thank you again. When I say scale mail I mean a heavy leather backing (made by my hand). Covered in small scales of sheet metal also (made by my hand) riveted to the leather backing.
I have no real time period of interest. I just like making my own stuff and see how it holds up. Maybe one day something I make will actually be functional. LOL
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Post by Beowulf on May 30, 2013 19:23:10 GMT
I scrambled for something quickly and found the obvious thing, which isn't really that bad... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_armourLooks cool, always does. From a historical standpoint I've always wondered if it was meant mostly for arrows and sling stones rather than hand-to-hand combat. Then again, what were people wearing UNDERNEATH of that? There are plenty of examples of stuff from historical artwork and account that seem to go against what pop culture shows us, like gambesons (or other mostly-cloth defenses) worn OVER maille. Why? Why not? It must have worked, and again the specter rises: What were they wearing BENEATH the maille? Another gambeson? If I had a tail, I'd be chasing it.
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Post by hufford73 on May 30, 2013 22:59:12 GMT
Me too. LOL. I like and have seen that picture. Long D shaped scales over lapping. I think it is sexy. But ive been told im crazy a few times too.
I think im going for function mostly but a look is a close second. I like plate armor just Dont want to wear any (at this Time).
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Post by Babloo- pal on Jun 18, 2013 17:15:06 GMT
hi we are manufacturer of chainmail armour for more details enquiry at
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Post by William Swiger on Jun 21, 2013 10:01:08 GMT
hi we are manufacturer of chainmail armour for more details enquiry at
You need to apply for an M&V Account through Admin.
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Post by Kataphractos on Jun 24, 2013 23:10:29 GMT
Isn't the main, if only, difference between 'standard' reproductions and historical pieces/reproductions is that the 'standard' ones drill or punch holes in the rings for the rivet rather than drifting them (not removing any metal but pushing a hole through it)? Otherwise using smaller rings for a tighter weave could easily greatly increase the time commitment to make the piece, which in turn raises its price. Also, I'm curious as to how round rivets worked. Were they specially made so that they were actual, if just very tiny, rivets, or were they just lengths of snipped wire? If the latter, how did they stay in the rivet without falling out or being pushed out through wear? Would you say this video shows a historically accurate method? Granted he's making flattened rings, which IIRC didn't really come into play until the late 14th/early 15th century, but the methods should still be the same, right? Ok for some reason, the forum won't link directly to the video so here's the url.
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Post by Beowulf on Jun 25, 2013 3:17:04 GMT
Okay. I found the links you need. To be honest, when I was researching which vendor's maille to buy I found a person or two on this other forum to be sort of obnoxious because they kept making the point that modern maille was not accurate- riveted or not. You've got to understand, I was irritated mainly because of the lack of details in their criticisms, that and the typical "how dare you call my baby ugly" syndrome I was suffering from. I just wanted to get some maille, and get to it. But they were right, and not so obnoxious now that I have the details. My understanding: the iron was intentionally kept a bit "dirty" or with impurities- but the impurities were carefully spread evenly through the iron. This helped in drawing the iron out into wire small enough in diamter to make maille from without it breaking from "purity brittleness" for lack of a better term. The added malleability seemed to also help it in the toughness department a bit. There is a "roof" or "Watershed" in real maille. A little vaulted area with a fine "peaked" line right down the center of the overlap. This keeps the rings together better. You better read for yourself. It still makes my eyes cross a bit. I simply added the knowledge, then went and purchased good "fake" maille. I am not made of money and I do not have an infinite lifespan. Mainly informative with a few good historical quotes: www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.htmlThe full explanation of "what is authentic and why?" www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... ght=maille cheers
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Post by Beowulf on Jun 25, 2013 3:28:06 GMT
I cannot answer the round rivets question. I a having problems accepting completely the "what type of maille was when" question. I have been slowly trolling various places grabbing pictures of intact bits of maille from archaeological finds, I am not done, and I am still confused. My maille is wedge riveted. Probably wrong for a 1250 era harness. But I've learned stuff from owning it and I am proud of it. I guess that's enough for now. If I had something more to do with my kit- like do living history talks for people I might reassess the stuff I have more closely. But I'm just some WMA dude who right now doesn't have a fightgroup to teach in.
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Post by Kataphractos on Jun 25, 2013 5:52:20 GMT
I've read the Maille: Unchained before (probably my favorite article on MyArmoury), but haven't seen that thread. I wasn't aware of leaving impurities in the iron...kind of counterintuitive.
My maille's also wedge-riveted, but I bank on people not looking too closely at it (which never happens because wearing armor is like being a human magnet at Ren Faires) or knowing the historical period for flat ring maille.
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Jan 1, 2014 17:47:20 GMT
I am by no means an authority on mail or armour in general. Like most I am still learning. However, in regards to the question of modern mail vs original I have never seen modern mail that looks like an original in the video from the Metropolitan Museum. For a short cut look at the part starting at the 3 minute mark although the entire video is worth watching. A pin had a hard time penetrating it. At one point they show the protection offered by stabbing with a dagger with enough confidence to have a man inside. I wouldn’t trust modern mail to this test while wearing. I believe then like now there were more than one grad offered so other mail from the period may vary somewhat. Nonetheless, there is a big difference of what I see here and what I see offered today. People today remark on the expense; that one was estimated to have taken 2 years to make. Imagine at today’s prices giving 2 years wages for mail. Those Cold Steel/Lynn Thompson fans no doubt are familiar with his demonstrations showing someone piercing mail with some of his weapons. I have a hard time keeping a straight face as so many questions come to mind such as, what material the mail (aluminium?), butted, riveted, etc.
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