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Post by monginsidi on May 14, 2013 14:37:12 GMT
After looking at a few chinese sword, I realized that many of qing dynasty sword use a hollow copper rivet on the hilt. Does it actually work better than a bamboo peg or it's more of a decoration? What do you think?
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Post by Librabys on May 14, 2013 15:47:30 GMT
I think it is designed this way so to attach the tassel
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Post by Elheru Aran on May 14, 2013 17:02:29 GMT
Yeah, that rivet doesn't pass through the tang as far as I know. It's not structural in any way.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 14, 2013 20:45:49 GMT
For traditional Chinese construction, the tubular rivet goes through the tang, AND the end of the tang goes through the pommel and is peened. Maybe 20-25% were just peened, with no rivet, judging by how common holes are in tangs of bare blades (most have them, but not all). Some swords have a hole through the grip and the tang, but no rivet; it's just a lanyard hole. These might be remounts. This is also common on the little 16" blade jian; many of these are decorative rather than functional. A few have a large hole for a tubular rivet, and a smaller hole for a solid pin. (Then there are swords with different constructions, like full-width tangs and grips slabs held on by lots of pins, etc.)
With good modern threaded construction, if you have a rivet, it goes through the tang, and there will be a large washer and nut at the end of the grip, then the pommel, and then a small nut to hold the pommel on. (Bad modern threaded construction is just the one tiny nut at the end, holding everything, not just the pommel. Not good!)
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Post by monginsidi on May 15, 2013 4:27:34 GMT
So, It's safe to assume that most of hollow copper rivet is for decorative purpose although it also help fasten the hilt to the tang. For more structural integrity bamboo peg is the way to go. Please correct me if I'm wrong
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 15, 2013 5:40:39 GMT
Unless the hollow copper rivet has very thin walls, it should be stronger than a bamboo pin. A bamboo pin will be more likely to break.
However, a bamboo pin is more flexible and will act as a shock absorber. You are more likely to get a cracked grip if your rivet/peg is stiffer. With Japanese tsuka, this matters more than with Chinese swords where the tang is peened (or at least goes through the pommel and is secured by a nut).
A copper should protect better against catastrophic failure, like having the tang break at the peen, or where it is threaded (for a modern style sword), or having the pommel crack at the peen. The rivet should stop the blade from parting company with the grip.
A bamboo pin will still provide some protection if such a thing was to happen, but not as much protection as a copper rivet.
A copper rivet is more likely to result in a cracked grip, and a bamboo pin less likely. "More likely" is still unlikely, and a properly fitted grip will make it quite Note that a cracked grip is not catastrophic - the grip should be held together by the pommel and ferrule, and by cord wrapping if present. Either a copper rivet or bamboo pin will help keep the blade from twisting in the cracked grip. A hollow copper rivet, especially if secured with a washer on each side as is common, will help hold the grip together even if cracked, and will not fall out because of loosening due to a cracked grip.
I'd vote for copper for structural integrity for a Chinese sword over bamboo, but I don't think the improvement is a big deal. Bamboo is certainly adequate, too. Huanuo uses both tubular rivets and bamboo pins; neither are noted for failing often.
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Taran
Member
Posts: 2,621
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Post by Taran on May 15, 2013 16:00:20 GMT
Either/or. It's still a good sign for the construction of the sword.
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Post by MakChingYuen on May 25, 2013 9:25:39 GMT
I have the jade lion sword from Cold Steel and at first I was trying to get the sword apart but failed a few times, can't figure out how it works. Later I found out that using a vice grip will work to unscrew that nut cap off, so I did it and took the pommel off. Tthen unscrew that nut and washer too, but I don't know about the peg in the tang, so I kept trying to hammer the handle off and failed... so I gave up..
Well what the hell is wrong? I don't know! But after a week later, I found out a peg in the tang!!! ARGH!!!! dang, that thing is VERY STRONG because it didn't break even I was using a rubber hammer to work the handle out... glad I didn't break anything!
Proven that the bamboo peg is not weak, it can even withstand the hammer's tapping and still hold strong.
I guess it also have to do with how strong and how fit your bamboo peg is... if the bamboo peg is fitted perfectly, then it is for sure stronger than one that is fitted unevenly.
That's my experience!
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Post by Kilted Cossack on May 25, 2013 15:53:20 GMT
You're not alone, brother. I did the SAME THING with a CS 1796. I thought I was losing my mind: Why wouldn't the dang grip come off? I soaked it with Kroil, I tapped it with a hammer, I waited, I sulked, I thought . . . and then I found the pin in the tang.
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Post by MakChingYuen on May 25, 2013 21:24:46 GMT
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAFHA!! You make my day man! I feel SO GOOD now knowing that I am not the only fool out there who tried to hammer off those CS handles and think I am so PRO doing it! LOL!
Proven the peg is strong, at least! LOL! It can withstand my powerful abuse with that rubber hammer!!!!
Btw, I even tried to hammer it out and also hammer it back down just to try to wiggle it abit.. but still.. FAILED!
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