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Post by u02rjs4 on May 9, 2013 15:20:27 GMT
Hi all,
I recently bought a 1912 British Cavalry sabre. I will post a pic when i pick it up.
My question is this- At what stage or year do swords specifically British stop being made for battle if sharpened? What i mean is today most military swords are stainless steel display pieces. The sword i bought is marked George VI so is second world war era and well beyond the cavalry charge. It has a nice patina and a wicked point but a dull blade and wouldn't have seen action. Would it be manufactured to the same quality of say a blade in 1914 which was actually expected to be used?
I've also got my eye on a 1897 infantry sword and the same question springs to mind. One is Edwardian so just before WW1 and again the other George V or VI (sorry cant remember). The price is similar so ignoring condition is the quality the same etc?
cheers
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Post by Elheru Aran on May 9, 2013 15:35:41 GMT
It would probably actually be fairly similar quality to a WWI functional sword, IIRC. It was mainly after WWII that they started doing stainless steel, I think, due to cost.
I could well be wrong on this, of course. Glen Cleeton and Jonathan Hopkins on Myarmoury, and on this forum Dave Kelly, are the ones to ask...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2013 21:43:49 GMT
Mr Latham-Wilkinson on SFI is the man to ask since Wilkinson (and Moles) was the only sword manufacturers left after WW1 and until 2005. I'm sure he has all the info of his past family business.
Far from being an expert on British swords but this is my opinion.
The Commonwealth forces all use old swords (but right patterns) from the 1900s right up to modern made ones. Both are of good quality depending on the maker.
Official blades provided to the MOD (Ministry of Defence) were and are not supposed to be stainless steel; Pooley swords, the successor to Wilkinson and direct supplier to the MOD, doesn’t make stainless blades.
However officers can buy from other (cheaper, more accessible) makers located in India or Germany (WKC) and these do not follow Commonwealth blade regulations. It has always been that way even before and after WW2 (you can find blades made by the Germans E F Horster and Eickhorn).
Even these I’m not sure these are stainless steel except maybe WKC but I haven’t handled their British line of swords and I’ve yet to see a real modern British sword with a stainless blade.
Lastly the swords issued in present times to the British Armed Forces (Household cavalry, RAF and etc) may be for parade and ceremonial duties but still of high quality.
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Post by Dave Kelly on May 9, 2013 21:52:53 GMT
Complex number of questions you've got implicitly here. Easy bailout is that the 1908/1912 was never intended to be sharpened; it was strictly a hand lance. Number of weatern european swords followed the french is this dogmatic approach.
As others have stated SFI has all the resident real experts on Brit swordcraft.
Kudos to Pinotte for his explanation. Stainless steel has prevailed in the WWII and beyond era.
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Post by u02rjs4 on May 9, 2013 23:17:39 GMT
Thanks guys i'll check the maker etc and post a pic when i arrange a car to pick it up. Its missing its scabbard so i don't fancy taking it home on the motorbike even with good packaging!
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Post by u02rjs4 on May 13, 2013 17:40:19 GMT
Thought i'd put up some pics. I can't see a makers mark on it. It has a made in England stamp and a number on the spine. At the base of the blade is the common star motif. On the other side there is some incredibly feint writing. I think i can make out gers and london just about. It cost £110 pounds which is about $169 which i think wasn't too bad. |
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Talon
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Post by Talon on May 13, 2013 18:19:40 GMT
Looks to me like a 1912 cavalry sabre,the 1908 was much plainer.My money's on the 1912 but Dave Kelly will give a definitive answer when he sees it.
Edit i didn't see the above replies :oops: ,i really need a pair of specs.
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Post by Dave Kelly on May 13, 2013 21:11:49 GMT
Could probably use a better pic of the lower blade to pick up on asll the markings as best possible. Is it a V or VI? You were leaning on VI.
Blade has a serial number. Too low to be a Wilkinson, but with a serial num and a london address it could be an independent furbisher with a WIlkinson blade.
As to the real experts. I'd get a few better shots and ask the SFI folks wo weigh in. They specialize in Brit weapons.
Cheers
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Post by u02rjs4 on May 13, 2013 23:13:29 GMT
Thanks Dave yes its definitely George VI.
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Post by SPQR on May 14, 2013 14:04:55 GMT
Whatever the particulars, I'd recommend you get yourself some light machine oil (like for sewing machines) and a soft toothbrush and go after the guard with it. You've got what looks like active rust going on there, and left unchecked it'll just keep going. Also, you'll be amazed how much dirt and crud will come up out of the engraving and edges and whatnot. Wipe away the dirt you raise with a soft cloth and keep your brush cleaned out to avoid scratching the metal any more than necessary.
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Post by paulrward on May 16, 2013 4:19:29 GMT
Hello Mr. u02rjs4 ( all everyone else )
That is a very fine looking vintage Pattern 1912, with a nice etch on the blade and a very fine nickel plated guard bell.
I am going to shoot off my mouth, and offend some people, with my recommendation on cleaning it. Looking at the photos, I can see orange rust (hematite ) around the etching on the guard, and black rust ( magnetite ) on the blade. Let us start with the blade. The best way to clean off the black rust is with what is called 4-ought (or 0000) steel wool and machine oil. (The brand called ' 3 in One ' works well) Both of these can be obained at your local hardware store, and are very reasonably priced. And with some careful work and elbow grease, you will be able to restore the blade to a brighter condition.
The rust on the guard bell is a different kettle of fish. First, some information: When steel is Nickel plated, the process first involves laying down a plated layer of Copper ( called the 'Copper Strike' ) and then several layers of Nickel. The purpose of the copper is to allow the nickel to adhere to the steel, and makes the plated layers more uniform in thickness.
The problem is, when copper and iron are in direct proximity, and oxygen is present, you get electrolytic corrosion. This happens most readily where the copper and steel are exposed to the air and moisture. On the Pattern 1912, we can see how the orange rust is heaviest around the etched patterns on the guard bell. The problem is, Nickel is soft enough that, if we attempt to use oil and steel wool to clean it, we will chip and peel the nickel plating, and will very badly scratch it as well.
The best solution to this is Automotive Chrome Polish, which can be obtained at any auto supply store. Follow the directions, and use a soft rag, and you should be able to remove the rust, and give the nickel a nice polish as well. Just be sure you start out on a small area in an inconspicuous place, and if you see any nickel peeling, stop immediately.
As for the grip, it appears to be rayskin in fairly good condition, and this can be preserved best with a good quality wax type boot polish of the appropriate black color. However, the wire wrap is missing. This is a problem, and is difficult to replace. There are individuals who advertise on the net. ( a Mr. Tom Nardi comes to mind ) who advertise their services in this area.
A question comes to mind: Do you have the scabbard for your saber ?
Respectfully;
Paul R. Ward
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Post by u02rjs4 on May 16, 2013 10:06:36 GMT
Thank you very much for the advice. I have some chrome polish already so i'll pick up some 0000 steel wool. As far as the missing wire i'm not particularly bothered so i'll leave it as it is. Unfortunately it didn't have a scabbard. The rayskin is a sort of blue colour which would be hard to colour match. Could i just use a neutral wax?
Many thanks,
Rob
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