Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2008 23:49:49 GMT
i want this type of tang on a sword. but i always get stuff that its not history accurate. is there any sword maker that makes sword how i want?i want a bastard sword with this handle.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2008 23:54:43 GMT
The only slab-tang Katana-style swords I've seen that are functional would be the Angus Trim Tactical series.
There may be one or two other reputable dealers, but that construction IS non-historical as far as Katana are concerned, so you're not going to fund much in the realm of functional swords like that.
And be extremely careful of affordable ones. I've seen that some of the supposed "full tangs" were actually rat-tails with a thin steel rim around the hilt making it APPEAR full-tang.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2008 23:57:39 GMT
Just saw your edit, regarding a bastard-sword with this hilt style.
Still, Angus Trim Tac series.
Other then that, the only 2 handed swords I've seen like this were Grossemessers(Germanic 2-handed sabers with slab-tang hilts) such as the ones from Cold Steel, Albion, and I believe Lutel.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 0:00:56 GMT
from what i read of the forums angus trim is good.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 0:09:08 GMT
from what i read of the forums angus trim is good. I haven't heard ANY negative comments on Angus Trim's work. Though he is a tad expensive, considering what most forum memmers are geared toward paying. www.angustrimdirect.comI think that's his current website.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 7:38:00 GMT
www.bladematrix.tv has a number for full tang sandwich katanas for under $50. I have bought one and tested it on my tire-pell. They are tough enough. They are made from 420 J2 stainless steel. I have also done flat to flat beats against other carbon swords with no problem. Here is my review: mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/swordreview.htm#katanaMy blunt longsword also has a sandwich tang. I think all euro-swords should have a sandwich tang. A wider tang is always stronger. You can see it here: /index.cgi?board=euromedieval&action=display&thread=1197228631 You will notice it has no rivets holding the tang together. There are two collars at the end that hold the wood in place. The pommol then locks everything in place. The pommol is not peened or threaded. There is a rivet that goes through the side and into the tang.
|
|
|
Post by Brendan Olszowy on Feb 20, 2008 11:59:23 GMT
Can you make your own? Yeah I know, I keep saying it. But it is doable, as I've proved. I'd make you one if you lived in Australia. Can you make tons of noise where you live?
Why do you want it done like that?
Most functional swords have quite sufficient tangs, though Albions are the only ones I've seen that are as beefy as the ones I do.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 19:24:38 GMT
Why do you want it done like that? If the tang goes all the way to the edge of the handle that is an extra 2/8 of tang thickness in the width. That is a lot stronger. This is also historical. I have seen a sword at the MET that was actually captured in battle and it had a sandwich tang similar to my longsword. Sandwich tangs were sometimes used for Euro-sword and then wrapped for to the individuals grip taste.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 1:06:47 GMT
A sandwich tang hmm?
Do you dislike having to retie the ito? Because that is the only reason why i could see someone actually preferring this knife-like construction method over a more traditionally constructed katana.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 4:29:20 GMT
Oh god, I hate those tangs. Nothing worse then having VERY cold steel against you skin when pick up a sword for practice at 4 am in january.
Not only that, but they kinda ruin the balance of the sword. Yeah, rat tail tangs are bad, but tangs aren't suppose to be that BIG either.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 21, 2008 4:33:22 GMT
But I like the way cold steel feels in the morning. I don't know about balance, either. There are a few ways to alter that, so this style of hilt shouldn't really count against balance, particularly...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 4:36:30 GMT
Oh god, I hate those tangs. Nothing worse then having VERY cold steel against you skin when pick up a sword for practice at 4 am in january. Not only that, but they kinda ruin the balance of the sword. Yeah, rat tail tangs are bad, but tangs aren't suppose to be that BIG either. I've never seen a longsword like tsafa's with a tang like that, leading me to believe the blade is Aluminum or else there's no reason to attach the pommel like that. The style of hilt is certainly not without historical precedent. True, Katana were never created that way, but there's no reason it would negatively effect the balance if done properly. Messer and Grossemesser were both made with slab tangs. It's not a requirement, as hidden-though-tangs of the average European style sword has been proven to be sufficient through history. It's not better, it's not worse. It's simply a different option, allowing for a different look(such as hollow or decorative pins).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 11:46:03 GMT
I don't know about balance, either. There are a few ways to alter that, so this style of hilt shouldn't really count against balance, particularly... Well european swords do in the hilt, handle and pommel...the japanese sword...a bit less so. Also since you need more wood then a standard handle with that big beefy slab, it also doesn't help the matter. Yes a few ounces here and a PoB moved and inch there do make a difference.
|
|
|
Post by Brendan Olszowy on Feb 21, 2008 13:34:13 GMT
Tsafa - it has more breadth, but I notice the thickness on your blade looks to be only 3 or 4 mm, or say 3/16 - which is more slender than many swords. Albion and ATrims have been fine with regular tangs. Lord knows I make mine as broad as possible, usually 22mm x 6mm tapering down to 14mm x 6mm at the tang (for a 30mm wide grip). My wallace was 30mm x 6mm at the shoulder coz it had a 40mm wide handle.
Any way the bottom line is I agree that the biggest tang possible is a good thing, though I dont think this type of sandwich is essential to achieve stability. So you can fit a heck of a lot of tang inside a traditional grip - though thats not to say all manufacturers do.
Would it affect POB, accoustics etc, yes, but Ill let Gus and Tinker worry about that - I don't know how to calculate harmonic nodes etc., and my skill is poor enough and my strength is great enough that I don't feel 1oz back or forward.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 20:34:49 GMT
I should point out that this is a very large sword as was the one I saw at the MET with the sandwich tang. Larger two-hand swords place more stress on the tang. All the swords I have broken in my pell testing were hand-halfs with thin tangs. Here is a better pic that shows the size of the sword. See how it compares to my G2 BlackPrince in size. Here are the specs: length: 54.5 " blade: 42.5 " hilt: 12 " pob 3.5 " weight: 4 lbs Price: $250 Mind you this sword is not unwieldy for two reasons. First the tapering. All the weight is back weighted. Second, the large handle provides good leverage. That additional leverage means more stress on the tang. I have done extensive blade to blade drilling with this sword in my WMA practice. Its a good sword for my size and strength. For most people I would advise the loose the schilt and cut the blade 5 inches. That should bring the weight down to 3.5 lbs. The swords are made to order by Alchem. Two month wait. I've never seen a longsword like tsafa's with a tang like that, leading me to believe the blade is Aluminum or else there's no reason to attach the pommel like that. I was not sure, I sent an email to the company and just got their response. All their blades are made of high carbon steel.
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Feb 21, 2008 20:59:31 GMT
As for medieval sword being rarely made this way, I differ. Probably 20-30% (guessing) of the medieval swords on display at the Metropolitan Museum Arms & Armor exhibit show signs of this type of construction. All but one is or had been covered with leather, wire or cord grip wraps. One was a single hand sword from the armoury at Alexandria, which is dated to have been captured during the last crusade era. Another was a big 2-hand sword in the same case that had obviously been shortened to around 32 inches of blade length.
My opinion is that many more historic pieces had this type of construction than we realize. Because many, if not most, had some sort of cover over the hilt which conceals this detail of construction.
I guess it's all speculation until someone really researches this on a very large number of period pieces in museums and private collections. Maybe Peter Johnsson or someone with a similar exposure to museum pieces could offer real insight?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2008 5:21:43 GMT
Mike, I'm glad you dropped in for a comment. I recall looking at those swords with you at the MET when you came to visit NY. I knew you would have some more details to offer. Too bad the pics we took of sandwich tangs did not come out good.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2008 13:28:03 GMT
i think its much easyer to fix your handle with this type of setup.all you have to do is make 2 halfs of wood.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Feb 22, 2008 20:29:10 GMT
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Feb 22, 2008 20:45:37 GMT
I agree with those points. My belief is that this is a simpler method of construction, and was easier to accomplish field expedient repairs on. So it would have been an attractive alternative for munitions-grade swords. And it was most certainly used in some higher-grade swords, as demonstrated by the two beautifully ornamented examples at the MET. In the end, it might have been a "Ford vs. Chevy" thing for sword makers of the day? Some bladesmiths preferred to build them each way?
|
|