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Post by Temeluchus VII on Feb 5, 2013 3:41:14 GMT
Hello SBG. First, a little about me. My name is John, im 34, living in Florida. I'm long winded and tend to type as if i'm giving a lecture... i offer no apologies but will extend a kindness to anyone willing to answer; my question is found below. I have quite a bit of hobbies and interests, but one in particular that is appropriate for this crowd. I own 2 swords. One is a Museum Replica's Ltd Windlass Steelcraft " The Wheel of Time: Heron Mark Sword ". As an avid reader, and fan of that particular series it was created from, it was a gift and i still treasure it. The second is a Windlass Steelcraft Irish Hand and a Half, also purchased from Museum Replica's, this time by me for me. I once owned a store mannequin that i had in a home office, so i purchased chainmail, a tabard, and the Hand and a Half for decor, as a take on a Suit of Armor display. I also owned ( past tense in that they were misplaced during a move some years ago ) 2 shenai bamboo practice swords, and a very inexpensive ( read cheap ) bokken. I used to practice Yoga, and found Eishin- Ryu Iaido during that time. Never had the money for formal training, and never had the money for a suitable sword, so the wooden swords filled in for exercise. I was always disappointed because with Iaido, drawing is everything, and i had to pretend so to speak. I gave it up. Fast forward more than 7 years latter, and i am in a totally different position. I want ( need, almost ) to explore Iaido again, and can now afford to buy pretty much anything within reason. QUESTION PART STARTS HERE Before coming here, i have read enough to know that i don't need anything anywhere near $2000. I like the appearance of the Hanwei Bushido, and as far as i can gather, Hanwei puts out solid products. However, again, im not a "martial artist" and am not, at least not yet, being formally trained, so i feel like that much money at my level of understanding is unwarranted. This article www.sword-buyers-guide.com/ryumon.html, by your very own Mr Paul Southren, practically stirred an emotional response. "Feeling" that Ryumon was the right choice for me, i set out to find the sword that "spoke" to me and discovered this www.swordsofmight.com/ryumongold ... atana.aspx To me, thats Ryumon's version of the Hanwei Bushido. I'm very comfortable with a $450-500 purchase. Now, Mr Southren reviewed an older model of a different make, so my questions begin. How relevant is Ryumon now? Does everyone still look down their nose at them? ARE these likely produced in Longquan as is stated, perhaps even in the forge that Mr Southren vistited and video documented? And now some blade specific questions. The Golden Sakura is folded. I understand that is merely aesthetic, i do however like the look. Because of this it's hard to make out the hamon in the limited pictures online. Would you think the blade is through hardened or differentially hardened? It is often stated it has a 45/58 Rc, and that would indicate DH, but i can never find it explicitly stated, only that it is folded. Also that it is 1060 makes me feel better about it being folded, i don't want too brittle because Iaido is about drawing the sword, but also about cutting as well, which i intend to do. However, my cutting will be more, how would you say it... ritual-esque. Think meditative exercise. So i don't need a durable beater, and i don't need a super premium high end ( yet lol ). I do want to buy a sword that i am proud of, that appeals to me, that is nice enough to withstand lots of handling and become familiar to me. Final question about the blade itself, the Ryumon Dragon that Mr Southren reviewed has a PoB around 5" i believe he said, making it quite fast and agile. This is ideal for me, and am wondering if anyone knows what the PoB on the Ryumon Golden Sakura may be. I know there are plenty of Practical Performance type swords to be had that many of you ( if anyone has made it this far into my first post, congrats and this is a taste of things to come, from John aka The Mouth of the South ) probably have been thinking this whole time " no no , my man you need a such and such ". I am open to suggestion, but the Hanwei Bushido and the Ryumon Golden Sakura " speak " to me. Thank you for your time -John "Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain"
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Post by William Swiger on Feb 5, 2013 4:23:38 GMT
Welcome!
I have no experience with the swords you are asking about. Someone should be along soon.
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Post by kingrikoraru on Feb 5, 2013 4:33:17 GMT
I have not owned a sword from Ryumon but for that price range, I would look at the ronin dojo pro or ronin dojo line, both of which are at your price range and are tough as nails. For 400-500, you could also look either at the Rk2 line or their 1095 budget beaters, both of which are very pleasant to look at and are scary sharp. ( ... atana.html). For your specific need of an aesthetically pleasing sword that can also perform well (You mention you don't really need it to be that grreat, but these still are high-performance katanas) I would suggest you look at all the Lines My favorite katana-manufacture/brand so far, in no particular order is , Bugei (High end Hanwei for that matter as they're both technically from the same parent company), and Ronin. Lower end Musashi Bamboo Oh and I forgot : Welcome ^.^ to the forum
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Feb 5, 2013 4:46:51 GMT
Welcome aboard, John! Hope to see you around often.
As for the first part of your question, Ryumon is not particularly relevant these days. Not so much to say that they have bad products, but the industry has grown by leap and bounds since that review and the competition is fierce. Take the Golden Sakura you linked. It very much looks like the Bushido, but upon closer inspection you can see that details like correct alternation of the ito and presence of a proper bull horn or metal saya fitting are not there. These are details that should be present on a sword of that price. They also denote a lack of attention. These are issues that have driven Ryumon from the forefront of the sword industry. Is it made in Longquan? Likely yes. There are many forges of varying quality there, so there is little reason to doubt that the location is correct, though the quality is not. I feel that they are pretty over-priced for the level of quality.
The number one consideration for this is how you feel, though. If the Ryumon katana really get you going, then you should get one. To get something that is better but you don't really like would be counter-productive, and worse than if you'd gotten a potentially inferior piece that you love.
As for some suggestions, I'd point you towards the following:
(Hung Shing True Sharp): Found at .weebly. Ronin Katana: Found at Ronin Katana.com, SBG Store, Kult of Athena. Kris Cutlery: Found at Kris Cutlery.com, Kult of Athena. Munetoshi: Found at Swordnarmory.
There are also low-cost custom makers that have been doing very good work. You could have a very nice folded blade sword made for $450 or under.
Huawei: Found at Huawei-sword on eBay. Sinosword(JKoo sword): Found at Sinosword.com.
Hope this helps. Be sure to give us an update as to what you wind of getting.
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Post by kingrikoraru on Feb 5, 2013 4:52:36 GMT
Oh yea I forgot about KC katana. They are a bit plain but there could be some beauty in simplicity. Ican't speak for Munetoshi tho, Never tried them before but they do have some nice blade
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Post by johnwalter on Feb 5, 2013 4:58:44 GMT
If you are going to self train I would recommend an Iaito,even if joining a dojo,most would require you to have one. If you must have a live blade,there are a number of good choices available at reasonable prices.I would start at the RK with bohi to help you train alignment.A Musashi shirakawa series is very inexpensive but a decent blade for Iaido.Any of the Hanwei practical series will be pretty good.If you just want a folded blade at that price I would opt for one by Munetoshi and maybe have it rewrapped.At the higher end you have Bugei and Dynasty Forge.I honestly think that Ryumon is overpriced,but I could be wrong,never handled that one.If you want something really tough for learning to cut,Hanwei Raptor or RK.KC also makes a great product.Those are my recommendations.And welcome to the forum. For self learning tho I would really recommend light and a bohi.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Feb 5, 2013 10:24:15 GMT
Welcome to the forum. My opinion about Ryumon is not high. It's been probably 5+ years from the time I saw a Ryumon in person, and I consider them very bad. Back in the day it was said that Ryumon = high end Masahiro. I can't remember if they were indeed produced by the same forge. But about everything in that Ryumon sword I saw was bad, it looked somewhat like a Japanese sword, but that was about it. My opinion might be biased by the bad sword I saw years ago, but I would advice not to spend 450$ to Ryumon. Judging by that one pic I'd say it's really not worth it. Hanwei Bushido on the other hand is a lovely sword. It's the best Paul Chen sword I've ever owned, I sold mine recently, but I liked that sword very much. Folded K120C by Hanwei is great looking steel, here is one close shot so you can see the blade comparison to Ryumon. Even though it has the PC "over-etch" it still looks miles better than Ryumon. When the over-etch fades it just gets lot better looking. If you are not buying sword at fast schedule, you can keep an eye out for used PC Bushido in the 500$ range. As new the Bushido prices have bumped a bit during the last few years, and I think 900$+ is bit too much from the sword. In 500$ range there is a huge amount of good swords. But if you can afford going for Hanwei Bushido, and really want it, I think you will be happy with it. I still think the current price of new Bushido is ok but not as great deal anymore as it used to be. Now there ain't too much difference between Bushido and cheaper Bugei anymore, and Bugei (even though Hanwei makes them) is way above regular Hanwei swords.
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Post by OttoVonFaart on Feb 6, 2013 0:43:39 GMT
You mentioned that you now live in Florida. Were I in your location, I would check out Nihonzashi Sword Store & Dojo in St. Pete. They have a huge retail store and their web site has lots of info. www.nihonzashi.com
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Post by Temeluchus VII on Feb 6, 2013 4:34:19 GMT
First, thank you all for taking time to respond and offer insight. After spending much of the day following leads you have provided, so to speak, i have come to some conclusions that i would like to share. Feedback would be very much appreciated. Jussi Ekholm wrote, " Now there ain't too much difference between Bushido and cheaper Bugei anymore, and Bugei (even though Hanwei makes them) is way above regular Hanwei swords." So i went here www.bugei.com/ and looked at the Introductory Series, specifically this bugei.com/entry-level-higo-musas ... 5-prd1.htm and this bugei.com/entry-level-flower-ped ... 1-prd1.htm. I came away feeling like if you want the quality that is expected from Bugei, you also need to expect to pay $1000+. Seems like these don't compare to a little more expensive Hanwei products like bugei.com/golden-oriole-katana-1331-prd1.htm I followed some other leads suggested, and it appears that the Ronin Dojo series just isnt appealing to me at all, however the Ronin Elite is amazing. They are also more than $800 and are all sold out. Same issue with : RK, very slim pickings and mostly sold out. I have determined that what i " want " is apparently higher than what i intended to spend, and is probably more than i " need ". Here's what i feel is my current list of swords that i keep going back to reference and look at: www.swordnarmory.com/Dancing-Cra ... h-3302.htm ( no idea why this link doesn't seem to be working, but it is to the Munetoshi Dancing Crane ) www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... ght+Katana www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... ole+Katana These are in order, sub $300, a little over $300, and then over double that. What they have in common is a genuine Hamon, and Bo-Hi, among other things. As i have looked at swords all day practically, i have apparently given short attention to artificial hamon weapons and to thick " beater style " heavy blades. I still feel the Golden Oriole from Hanwei is too expensive, and unwarranted for now. There's also the fact that it doesn't seem to get much attention, as i'm sure you all will enlighten me as to why. So that's where i'm at. I'm almost at the point of setting an absolute price point to force me to narrow my choices, as i have been considering swords from Musashi at the $95 price point to $1200+ Bugei Signature line. In otherwords... i'm all over and drowning in options
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Post by Temeluchus VII on Feb 6, 2013 5:17:31 GMT
Yeah, seriously, Golden Oriole. 27 1/2", just a little over 2 lbs, with a PoB around 3"-4", this thing must be insanely agile. Anyone know if this sword can be had for under $600 anywhere, ever?
-John
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Post by kingrikoraru on Feb 6, 2013 5:42:22 GMT
If you wait for used sale, you can get a bugei or bushido or golden oriole for around that price. Although to be said, a bugei at around 500-600 can be a bit used, but it's still a great deal. If you are patient, these will come on the used market every now and then, but it's not often and are often swiftly picked up. (I saw a bugei on sale and swooped it up right away and now working to personalized it). As for the Oriole (Which I believe is a very agile blade and thin blade that is unforgiving in bad cuts), I really think that it's overshadowed by other Hanwei's kat in that middle hanwei price range (400-700) where the difference between a $400 shinto and a $650 oriole is not significant enough for people to pick one over the small differences in each in term of handling and appearance (It's all T-10 hamon blade I believe for that price range and the Shinto is one of Hanwei's more popular blade in that range). The moment you go above the $800 mark for Hanwei, the quality improves by a good bit.
Also maybe check out the bamboo mat, shinto, tori (all from hanwei)
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Post by Temeluchus VII on Feb 6, 2013 5:58:11 GMT
Kingrikoraru wrote, " ...If you are patient, these will come on the used market every now and then, but it's not often and are swiftly picked up. " Where should i be looking for deals like this?
Also " As for the Oriole (Which I believe is a very agile blade and thin blade that is unforgiving in bad cuts), I really think that it's overshadowed by other Hanwei's kat in that middle hanwei price range (400-700) where the difference between a $400 shinto and a $650 oriole is not significant enough for people to pick one over the small differences in each in term of handling and appearance (It's all T-10 hamon blade I believe for that price range and the Shinto is one of Hanwei's more popular blade in that range). " What other swords do you feel are in comparison in that $ 600-$700 range with the Shinto and Golden Oriole?
I'm finding Shinto to be around $700, perhaps im not looking hard enough? Or did they recently fluctuate upwards? I want to exhibit restraint and shop sub $300, but that Golden Oriole has me under spell. Had no idea it was in a blue color scheme, which i like alot.
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Post by kingrikoraru on Feb 6, 2013 6:25:39 GMT
Look at our classified section for that. If you like the blue color scheme and a agile blade, we do have a very nice orchid in there atm I believe (it'stheir higher end folded blade) viewtopic.php?f=36&t=15061. Other swords you could consider from hanwei in that price range is, what i believe the most popular offering from hanwei at this range, is the hanwei Bamboo mat.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Feb 6, 2013 10:39:44 GMT
I forgot that Bugei had introduced that new Entry line... But yes when talking of "Bugei quality" I'm meaning their Exclusive lineup that is made by Hanwei. Their Entry line is made by Skyjiro, personally I'm not liking them too much, but granted that David Goldberg was involved in design and Keith Larman gave an approving nod regarding their performance, they probably are good swords. Classifieds section at SBG is great thing. You can find great deals in there. And that Orchid in there that King pointed out is great deal (I like the K120C steel models by Hanwei, and at 2nd hand prices they are great deals). But sometimes you gotta be really fast, as there are plenty of us looking for 2nd hand deals. Usually every swordforum has classifieds section, and I guess most of us drool items in multiple forums. Of the options you listed, I can only offer my personal opinion, and I know others will feel differently. Munetoshi, I know many people like them but I don't. I know this is harsh thing to say after owning just one of their swords. Granted that sword should have been quite up to par with Dancing Crane, I didn't see that much value in the sword, and I didn't see the cutting performance either. I know plenty of people are very happy with their Munetoshi, and I agree I maybe too picky about things. PPK XL, I owned old PPK years ago and liked it very much. Back then there wasn't so big availability of production swords as there is today, so it was kinda one of the few affordable swords out there. The XL geometry by PC gives good cutting performance. New PPK models have also cotton ito - where as old ones had annoying imitation leather. I haven't seen Golden Oriole in person, but I suppose it's a fairly good sword like rest of PC mid-lineup.
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George
Member
Banned
Posts: 1,899
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Post by George on Feb 6, 2013 12:34:02 GMT
If you can wait a few months the Ronin elites will be back. They get made each year, the ones on the site are from last years batch Im waiting too haha
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Post by johnwalter on Feb 6, 2013 14:56:42 GMT
I would say spend lightly and get a feel for a katana.Chances are it will not be your last one anyways. Pm forum member deejay,he still may have his Golden Oriole up for sale. is about to restock some models and the RK should be back in March.He will also occasionally make a piece to order. The Hanwei practical plus XL is a good sword as is the Dancing Crane.The crane is rather lightweight and very little niku.It handles rather nicely,as does the XL light. You may want to check out the Hanwei Bamboo Mat and the Tori,Tori XL.
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Post by Temeluchus VII on Feb 6, 2013 21:17:13 GMT
There's another piece from Munetoshi called the Mokko that seems serviceable as well. Seems to good to be true at that price. Reviews say it's great. Is that because they are reviews from people who don't know what great is- like me I suppose?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Feb 7, 2013 2:05:53 GMT
The Mokko should be good. I've bought three Munetoshi katana and was pleased with them all. They are not the best sword you'll run into, but they are very good for their price point. Swordnarmory is also a fantastic vendor.
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Post by johnwalter on Feb 7, 2013 13:53:44 GMT
Reviews are fun,but not everyone writing them have alot of experience.The Mokko is good,but not great.Its light and vey little niku,Ive handled a couple and owned one for awhile,good sword for the money.Munetoshi makes a good budget priced sword,not great,but few are,and great ,even good will vary from user to user based on anything from aesthetics to actual ability to use a katana.I havent used their higher priced stuff except for a couple times so I cant say much about them.I currently have the old 1065 TH beaters,2,1 original Matsu a customized Akitsushima and a Bonsai waki.For the prices,Im very happy with them.The Matsu,Mokko,Akitsushima and Crane are not very forgiving to bad technique tho.
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Post by Rafael on Feb 8, 2013 20:51:57 GMT
The munetoshi stuff in the 160$ range that is diff harden T10 is great value, really excellent durability and able to chop wood like an axe without harming the edge. Good quality blade with crappy fittings but nothing loose in handle. That is basically what munetoshi does best. For over 200$ range your much better off with huawei or stnihonto off eBay = much better fittings and still nice durable steel. Better range of options too. Here is a nice one .. You. Could hunt around the other listings and ask for more other fitting sets versus just what he's got there on that listing for options www.ebay.com/itm/BATTLE-READY-JA ... 4ac134843f If you don't mind spending more check out what huawei has to offer.
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