|
Post by Svadilfari on Jan 25, 2013 20:26:16 GMT
OK..maybe this is going to start a flame war ..but that's not my intention. My basic question is...are so-called Combat/Tactical knives of any real PRACTICAL OFFENSIVE/DEFENSIVE use for today's average modern soldier ? Sure..I know of all the *what-if* scenarios..but are there any VERIFIABLE instances of tactical knives being used for their advertised function - hand to hand combat - in current combat theatre's ? To me..most of all those knives being sold today are sold on their 'Matcho' image, the "My weapon is bigger than your's" type of effect ?? And by 'verifiable' instances I mean those in official records, not the "my cousin heard that so-and so's uncle/brother/son saw a guy kill a taliban with his tactical tanto after the taliban rushed him" type of urban myth. And mind you..I'm not discounting or ignoring all the OTHER uses today's soldier has for a good blade - I'm just commenting on all the 'offensive" hype going into marketing these Combat/Tactical blades.
|
|
|
Post by birdman on Jan 25, 2013 20:36:29 GMT
I'd say the tried-and-true, combat-tested designs, like the USMC Ka-Bar combat/utility knife (which has been around since WWII) might be of some practical defensive/offensive use in a pinch. Not so sure about some of the newer, more gimmicky designs I have seen, though.
|
|
|
Post by Rifleman Lizard on Jan 26, 2013 0:18:01 GMT
In combat? Not really. Knife combat in today's military deployments is exceptionally rare. For starters, why bother? The stealthy knife-in-teeth types from the movies are pure bullsemprini fiction. It's easier to shoot someone than dance with 'em.
Still, in my experience the majority of soldiers carry a "just in case". Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Possible but not at all probable.
Cutting ropes and lines, signalling with light, eating with a knife? Much more likely. Very practical.
|
|
|
Post by demonskull on Jan 26, 2013 0:58:18 GMT
Actually yes, not just for the normal applications and the possible defense useage.
Particularly in areas of the World where the carring of blades are a traditional display of masculinity. It has a valid psychological effect.
|
|
Talon
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,554
|
Post by Talon on Jan 26, 2013 6:25:16 GMT
I would think that a good solid 4 to 6 inch fixed blade would be as useful for a soldier as it is for anyone else.Something sturdy and well tempered and a good blade grind that can take squaddie abuse like an esee 4 or 5 would be ideal.
Tacticool looking knives like most of the top's line or one of the jimmy lile bowie's would most likely get you laughed off the barracks as a rambo wannabe. For combat a bullet makes a lot more sense,If i was in the forces and standing next to a guy wearing one of these things i'd give him a wide berthtops.jpg[/attachment]
|
|
|
Post by oolong dao on Jan 26, 2013 7:33:28 GMT
A knife is a tool that in desperate times must become a weapon, Good portion of US combat knives had rat tail tangs to my knowledge my uncle had a kabar he was using for Kukri, bowie, machete work and i remember just seeing it snap and the blade go straight in a creek.
what im saying is fighting knives can only do fighting, utility knives can do both but neither should be in the top five things you try to whip out in a fight.
|
|
|
Post by William Swiger on Jan 26, 2013 8:23:54 GMT
When I was deployed numerous times or just in the field training, I carried a tactical knife. Came in handy sometimes for things I would consider camp type uses in the civilian world. Just a tool you can use. Modern combat has pretty much made a blade of any type obsolete.
I do carry a pocket knife all the time and sometimes when I am going on a long walk in the woods where there is not many people or none at all, I wear a tactical knife under my coat or hidden in warm weather. I am from West Virginia and that is sort of normal. :-) Yeah - we have rifle racks in our trucks as well.
|
|
|
Post by WAAAA_CHAAAA on Mar 14, 2013 11:07:05 GMT
These days "combat/tactical" knives would only really be used by "special forces", I believe. Modern combat on todays battlefields usually negates the use of a bladed weapon. Standard issue knives for soldiers are more utilitarian and function as a multitool as well as bayonet.
That said I recently received a Hissatsu, certainly a knife in the category discussed. It is absolutely designed to do one thing and while I highly doubt I would ever use it on a person, I'm sure it would do that quite well combined with proper training. For anything else I would have to say there are *much* better choices out there.
|
|
George
Member
Banned
Posts: 1,899
|
Post by George on Mar 14, 2013 12:29:55 GMT
^^^ I would second the Hissatsu based on its design. If you watch James Williams combat videos, almost all are in side a building when someone grabs your rifle, basically its quicker to deploy a knife in your center line of your body, 'deal with the threat' then keep moving as he puts it. Basically you could struggle trying to get your gun back, grab your side arm, aim, shoot or just instinctively deploy your knife.
Of course a very limited scenario. Still it has its uses. Especially in places where gun laws are very strict. Here in Aus carrying a gun of any sort is basically illegal, so a knife is a very good option for defense.
I have knives for different reasons and yes i have tactical weapons. I live in a rough neighborhood and would would not think twice to defend my family if someone broke in while we were home. It would be a last resort and i would hope, it would be enough to scare said person. If not i am trained to use it and i know the consequences of home invasions if the perpetrators aren't after money or belongings.
The rest of my knives are for a purpose. I need a knife for work so ive got a tough folder. One for hunting and one for camping. So for you yanks that can own guns, tactical knives are a bit of a 'cool' factor i believe. However for other people they can be useful weapons.
|
|
|
Post by Stromlo_Swords_USA on Mar 14, 2013 20:51:57 GMT
I read this one the other day, www.news.com.au/national-news/di ... 6593075852 with the commando having to choke the guy to death. Using instictive MMA because even pulling a blade when you are not expecting it takes too long.
|
|
|
Post by BePrepared on Mar 14, 2013 20:54:39 GMT
I have a Hisshou. It's pretty nice for a slashing, limb removing blade, but it would certainly not be my first choice for a fighting knife.
The lack of a guard would make stabbing through bone a very risky proposition. I'd much prefer my Busse TGLB for "combat". It's a much more durable knife that could be used for prying, various utility tasks, and fighting if needed
The Hisshou would probably be a better choice for a "knife fight" as it's very well suited to slashing and has a good big more reach. Most knife fights are more slash, less stab.
|
|
|
Post by WAAAA_CHAAAA on Mar 15, 2013 2:35:13 GMT
Techniques for stabbing with tanto style blades are designed to minimise the risk of the hand slipping onto the blade during a committed thrust, but a guard on a knife is always better than none I think.
But yes in the highly unlikely scenario of a "knife fight" stabbing is probably a very dangerous move, distant slashing with the last inch of the blade would be the most common attack method. Considering this the longer your knife the more advantage you have. Stabbing is usually done in surprise takedown or a coup de grace.
The very nature of the steels used in the Hissatsu series are not suitable for ardous tasks, though I'm not sure of the more recent models. The design philosophy seems to be only geared at injuring and incapacitating people.
|
|
George
Member
Banned
Posts: 1,899
|
Post by George on Mar 15, 2013 12:32:42 GMT
A stab through bone, or to stab through armor is totally different to a normal gripped hand. A stab from the palm of your hand it better for hard targets with no risk of slipping. Thats why the Hissatsu was designed the way it was. Also being ambidextrous so you can utilize many grips and strikes. The Hisshou was designed to take off limbs and to intimidate not really made as much for stabbing. Agreed there are better 'multi purpose' knives but the OP stated COMBAT only
|
|
|
Post by brissybeater on Apr 17, 2013 1:28:09 GMT
Sergeant Paul Cale. DAMNNNN. That is a lesson in hardening up and getting it done. How did I miss that one. Thanks Stromlo.
ADDRESSING THE FOR TACTICAL KNIVES: Well that is a good example of what can happen. I'll address the "for" with tactical knives being relevant based on their "typical" categories.
Connotation of "Tactical": Most knives are named which I think usually typifies their role. Tactical, Survival, Hunting, Bushcraft, Kitchen, Utility. I always say right tool for right job. Survival Knives while usable for bushcraft don't always make best bushcraft knives (they are thicker, more robust, less delicate when delicate works) and a Tactical Knife might not make the best Survival Knife (Survival needs quality steel, sensible design that wont fatigue user). Their is no magic do it all blade. I hear guys that say. This tactical knife with micarta grips will make a good hunting knife. YUCK, NO. Can you imagine the smell of blood and gut juice soaked micarta after a few days without a good soapy clean. Some guys think you can get one knife for multiple roles. It just doesn't happen, same with guns or any tool.
TactiCOOL Bagging: People bad mouth all the "tacticool, mall ninja" elements of tactical knives but the short straw is these elements have their uses. Some of the tropes of "tactical" knives suit their role very well are as follows:
Kydex: I love quick deploying kydex sheaths and a situation like Paul Cale's that would illustrate that a quick deploying speed sheath, MOLLE placed within the quickest deployment on the soldiers gear would of been vital. Poor guy had to strangle the baddie, bet he would of used the knife had it been available.
Half Serrations: "Oh its the poor mans sharp blade" for those without three Japanese whetstones and 10 hours patience (hyperbole). Yeah a little bit but why do they place that 1 inch bit of serrations first on the blade from the hilt. Answer, its the bit you use the most. Survival/Bushcraft/Food Prep. Knives should NEVER (really) have half serrations because they portion should be used for whittling, tinder shaving, battoning, (if applicable), delicate/fine cutting firesteel sparking etc. But for tactical knives with soldiers/some LEO its being used for cord/rope/fibre cutting, light sawing of material, ripping/gouging through materials when searching for drugs/IED's, emergency webbing/seat belt cutting. So apt in those uses.
Scary Looking Value: I once asked why are bayonets still issued and a soldier said "crowd control". The psych element if you are keeping people back/contained the guys noticed they kind of looked at the gun barrels like "whatever" but put scary sharp thing on the end and they know it is their getting to close that could result in their pain. It's self regulating threat device. It stops soldier likely getting rushed and stabbed if the person has a concealed knife before a solid search is done. So a tacticool knife on the LBE can be an additional psych value in a soldiers favour because the person knows if might get whipped through their meat quicker than the gun. Psych101: Makes them think twice, makes them problem solve, problem solving in your higher brain is difficult when its the lizard/caveman/fight or flight brain doing all the thinking under stress, so they spend lots of time thinking about it all while the soldiers take less time deciding what to do.
Middle Eastern Knife Culture: Plus where they are now in the Middle East the culture has big time knife value/respect so its a "hearts and minds" element, just not in a lovey dovey way. Guy with scary blade is guy to fear/respect etc.
Back Serrations: I think they serve the same purpose as the partial serration if done right. Some soldiers reckon they are awesome as a rough saw tool (not wood though) but saw backs are just plain Rambo and should be stopped.
Westernised Tanto Point: I don't think the tanto point penetrates any better than a spear/clip point but it doesn't suck at that role either. Its value is actually in "Snap Cutting" a short, snap/whip of the wrist which is quick to connect, quick to recover, body tight, fast and easy to execute in a panic state. The spec-ops may be so hard to use complicated moves CQC but if a regular soldier/leo is caught in that scenario they will deploy and whip that blade until bad guy gives up for blood/bits of meat loss. Also canter the tanto point a bit and it looks like the head of a broad head arrow, and that is what it does in the snap cut. Penetrates and widens the wound in the quick, point on connection.
Cheap and Competitive prices: Soldiers are "indelicate creatures" and they use their blades quite roughly. Sometimes so roughly that even if they maintained them every downtime (which is spent on every other bit of gear) they would still trash them. Plus due to pay etc a knife coming in at just over/under $100.00US is a solid investment for them with all the above qualities.
Do tactical knives have a purpose. YES, absolutely but mostly within their theatre of use. Most deployed will likely carry a multi-tool and their bayonet and it will serve everything but just depends. Each to their own. Apologise for length but yeah.
|
|
|
Post by Onimusha on Apr 17, 2013 1:39:33 GMT
Answering the op. They don't really keep records of things like that. They try to keep up with enemy KIA, but not the manner in which individual soldiers killed them. Now, even in modern combat, blades come into play more than one would think. The local guard unit was deployed with special forces units to train the Iraqi military. Of course the specops guys had to hunt action. The commander told me that their leisurely tomahawk throwing intimidated the Taliban.
|
|