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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Jan 13, 2013 0:24:08 GMT
Hello all, i've recently obtained a Gladius, as some of you saw in my latest review, and its gotten me curious about roman and greek gladius techniques, i know nothing on the subject so any good articles or videos would be appreciated, i know it was primarily a thrusting weapon used with a shield, but thats about it :oops:
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 13, 2013 0:56:40 GMT
I saw a video on Youtube longer ago than I can remember dealing with just that subject, but I can't seem to find it now. That said, I do remember that the techniques demonstrated (against a very simple and slender pell, probably no thicker than a man's wrist) were very simple: a diagonal cut down, a cut to the abdomen, a cut to the thigh, and then a stab to the belly from below repeated on the left and right sides. Mind, I seem to recall it being demonstrated without a shield, but it wouldn't take much to adjust, I think.
Since the Romans prized efficiency and working as a unite over being a master swordsman, I could easily see them using the most basic of the basic that way; after all, they're easy to drill, easy to master, and you could likely turn a man into a proficient soldier in little time at all.
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Post by TheNewDavout on Jan 13, 2013 1:14:51 GMT
If i remember, there's some material in Vegetius, and a few references in other Roman literature/history to Gladius "fencing" including people practicing at the baths, often against a pell, but sometimes forms of bouting, perhaps even with a slight competitive element. As to technique, what Vincent said, toss in that Vegetius mentions wooden training gear meant to be heavier than the real equipment, both swords and shields.
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Post by john570 on Jan 16, 2013 3:12:04 GMT
The style you fight in will depend a lot of the length of the blade plus what's in your other hand. Not to go to far into it.
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Post by Military History is 4 Me on Mar 5, 2013 16:56:33 GMT
Here is a video showing how romans fought with various weapons including the gladius. ... re=related
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Post by Ninjadave89 on Mar 5, 2013 18:23:02 GMT
Quote from Vegetius about training on the wooden post. ''The recruit was exercised with the sword and shield, sometimes aiming at the head or face, sometimes at the sides, and others endeavoring to strike at the thighs or legs''.
Remember though that the Romans were around for a long time and there were quite a few types of gladius and all different blade lengths, so no doubt the fighting styles changed quite a lot. The earlier types (the hispaniensis and the mainz) are very good cutters. The hispaniensis must have been used for cutting quite a lot as there is this quote...
"Philip's men had been accustomed to fighting with Greeks and Illyrians and had only seen wounds inflicted by javelins and arrows and in rare instances by lances. But when they saw bodies dismembered with the gladius hispaniensis, arms cut off from the shoulder, heads struck off from the trunk, bowels exposed and other horrible wounds, they recognised the style of weapon and the kind of men against whom they had to fight, and a shudder of horror ran through the ranks."
But then Vegetius states (likely talking about a later period and the pompeii type gladius) that ''They were likewise taught not to cut but to thrust with their swords. For the Romans not only made a jest of those who fought with the edge of that weapon, but always found them an easy conquest. A stroke with the edges, though made with ever so much force, seldom kills, as the vital parts of the body are defended both by the bones and armour. On the contrary, a stab, though it penetrates but two inches, is generally fatal. Besides in the attitude of striking, it is impossible to avoid exposing the right arm and side; but on the other hand, the body is covered while a thrust is given, and the adversary receives the point before he sees the sword. This was the method of fighting principally used by the Romans''.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 23, 2013 15:15:25 GMT
Why would the right foot be in front if the left arm holds the shield? That goes against what I know about sword and shield fighting, especially with such a sizable shield as the scutum. Now I'm not saying the right foot never is in front, fights are dynamic after all, not stationary, but as a basis stand the "right leg forward yet scutum left"- posture strikes me as odd. Not to mention that thrusts are a lot more powerful if they come from the hip which is more the case when the sword holding arm/leg is behind. I find it hard to believe, honestly. I've never seen that basic stand in roman reenactment and I've both watched a lot and also fought some gladiatory stuff. Some gladiator types as the murmillo in fact wear leg protection on their LEFT lower leg which clearly shows it usually was in front with the shield. This way it's also much easier to push forward with the shield, your entire body being behind it.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 24, 2013 1:04:29 GMT
Oh this has nothing to do whatsoever with my opinion about you. I just can't quite follow your reasoning and disagree with what you say. This is merely educational. Please explain how the right foot forward stance can be true if gladiators fighting with gladius and scutum just like the legionnaire wore lower leg protection on their left leg. Where are you getting this right leg forward thing anyway? There's plenty of historical evidence for the left leg forward stand, for example on the Trajan's column: www.flickr.com/photos/mharrsch/3536727285/ look at the last guy in the testudo Or some gladiator with gladius and scutum, third guy from the left: www.roma-antiqua.de/forum/galeri ... _77411.JPG Another one, here the shield goes up, probably to intercept a blow but look at that beautifully depicted stance of the provocator: www.amphi-theatrum.de/uploads/pi ... ef-017.jpg Or this one, look how leg armor, scutum and helmet form a wall protecting the gladiator from head to toe: www.theatrum.de/uploads/pics/Eph ... -1-800.jpg I could go on... every google search turns up hundreds of these. I'm sorry but your right foot forward stance is crap in my opinion. Not only in mine either I should add, read Marcus Junkelmann for very detailed and precise description of roman legionnaire/gladiator fighting methods.
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Mar 24, 2013 7:07:02 GMT
Saito ;
From the few sources that I read, Roman infantry learned simple but efficient fighting technique. Legionnaires learned to bash their opponents with their shields, using their body weights, than stabbed their ennemies guts with theirs gladii. Almsot like football but with large plywood shields and short, extra-sharp swords.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2013 8:35:33 GMT
This thread has been very educational to read so far, need to chime in here before things get personal, no need for that guys, I want to keep this informative as I'm getting a lot from the previous discussions. Bill, You might be mistaken, Chenessfan is normally very reasonable and good natured, and is not a bully, though in this discussion he's coming across somewhat polemical... Chenessfan, I've been open minded about both opinions here on leading legs, though when Bill discussed the similarity with western fencing footwork, I was swayed by his argument, having studied fencing in my early days, stance was always with a leading right leg. I'd hazard to speculate that with a right leg forward, you extend your reach and compensate for the lack of length in the shorter blade - was taught precisely the same thing in Japanese koryu training using the kodachi (a wakazashi length short sword) - the stance and footwork was different to that when using a long blade, all movement was with a leading right leg and side on stance to dramatically extend reach. My assumption is that leading with the right allows for a fast thrust and extended reach, more important to get a first strike in than a slower but more powerful strike from further back. With a step forward advance, you could then deliver a more powerful follow up thrust with a left leading leg using the hips to an injured opponent who is less of a threat, a bit like a boxing jab follwed by a cross...
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 24, 2013 11:23:58 GMT
I did not want to seem polemical, if that happened, I apologize. Bill, if you read my other posts you would know I'm certainly not a forum bully, at least to the best of my knowledge You do seem to get personal rather quickly though (not that I or the rest of the forum didn't already know). Anyway: I however still don't buy the right leg forward stance. Where are you guys getting that from? Is there pictorial evidence, written information or anything else I'm not aware of? As I have asked in every post here before, please explain why gladiators fighting with gladius and shield so clearly wear protection on the left lower leg but often not on the right? You just cannot explain this FACT with your right leg stance theory (I suppose this is why I won't get an answer on my question). And while the Trajan's column certainly was made by artists who didn't see real battles, the gladiator depictions were made by people who saw fights in the arena and had a working knowledge of the basics. And there is OVERWHELMING pictorial evidence for the left leg forward stance, look at the art, practically EVERY gladiator with sword and scutum faces left leg forward. There is only one, obvious explanation. How can you ignore that? I know fights are not stationary, I do HEMA and Kali Silat myself but there are basic stances. You said so yourself, only you depict the right leg forward stance as the roman position of choice and I'm curious what you base this on. It is true that a leading strong hand makes for a faster strike but there are still many fighters who lead with their weak, in fact that is the basic boxing position so I hardly think that alone proves anything. Look I'm not saying right foot forward never happened, it sure did, I just don't believe it was the basic position a gladius and scutum fighter took on.
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Post by MOK on Mar 24, 2013 11:58:18 GMT
What, that it looks more dramatic? Mind, I wouldn't call that the only explanation, although it is pretty obvious.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 24, 2013 12:24:12 GMT
it makes sense to me that you would want to lead with the left so that when you step forward and thrust at the same time your getting the extra range and alot more power as opposed to standing stationary leading with the right and just poking at them with your arm, but my knowledge of Roman combat is Zero so my opinion doesnt really matter.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 24, 2013 12:35:37 GMT
Maybe I should have made myself clearer: The only, obvious explanation is that the historical art actually depicts the usual, left leg forward stance
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Post by MOK on Mar 24, 2013 13:23:31 GMT
No, that's not even the only obvious explanation. Another just as obvious one is that historical art portraying prize fighters contains an unknown amount of artistic license on the part of both the fighters and the artists (not to even mention the variously random rules and conditions imposed on arena fights), and is not necessarily an accurate depiction of the military methods of the time.
I, too, would very much like to know what evidence these is for the right-foot-forward stance! However, I wouldn't be so quick to outright dismiss the opinion of an actual historian based only on my own interpretation of somewhat debatably relevant artwork.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 24, 2013 14:01:28 GMT
Oh it's not only my own interpretation. I have mentioned Marcus Junkelmann before, he is a very well known and highly regarded military experimental archeologist, probably one of the most-listened to voice in Europe when it comes to roman warfare. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_JunkelmannHis website (in German though): www.junkelmann.de/index.htmlHe wrote several books on the subject of roman military fighting tactics as well as gladiators and theirs. He also is the founder of several reenactment groups that try to recreate roman warfare and arena fights. In his work he goes into great detail describing his research and practical experience fighting with gladius and scutum. What I write here I base on his findings. Of course one can't take historical art as a 100% accurate depiction of fight scenes and care must the taken but if the pictorial evidence and the archeological finds both point in the same direction, as it is the case here with art and found weaponry, one should pay attention.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Mar 24, 2013 18:09:31 GMT
I do not yet have many books that would focus on Roman arms & armor or military tactics but I'm planning to get some eventually. However in this www.amazon.com/Swords-Hilt-Weapo ... 1853758825 excellent book is a great article of Greek & Roman swords and their evolution by Peter Connolly (I believe this is new printing from the old book I have). I'll just take couple intresting facts of it, these might be bit out of context, but I can't write the whole several page segment of Roman swords. "Legionary sword of Caesar's day was very similar to the large numbers of long-pointed swords found in the Rhineland, These are referred as Mainz-type swords." Then there is a lot of speculation an answering how the sword was worn. On right hip, regardless with or without armor, some have speculated if it could be drawn with lorica segmentata, but they could. And when having a large shield in left hand drawing the sword from right hip was better. "Around the middle of the first century AD two significant but apparently unconnected changes took place in Roman military equipment: plate armor was introduced and the Spanish sword, the sword that had conquered the world was abandoned. The latter replaced by a weapon with narrower blade and much shorter point. It is not known why this change took place, for although the archeological record is excellent the literary sources are poor. However the Spanish sword had one weakness; the point stood up well to thrusting, but was liable to break if used for cutting and hacking." Then speculation about the evolution of Pompeii-type, and listing some considerable differences between the swordtypes. And how the new type must have been throughly tested before the army adopted it. Suggesting gladiators as a big part of evolution, as they did not need to pierce armor, but needed sturdy cut-and-thrust sword. Similar sword would probably had been more effective against virtually unarmoured foes along Rhine and Danube, fighting was close quarters with slashing weapons. Pompeii-type was worn on the baldric. There is also a mention of gladiator schools working & training closely with the army. Unfortunately I cannot add anything to the actual technique side of discussion, but it's nice to read the answers. I've been planning to get some books on Roman empire, and this thread again sparks that intrest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 0:57:04 GMT
Hi Jussi, I did some quick research, I think I might have the answer...
I've quoted some relevant portions from two books, see below.
In regards to which side the sword was carried:
It appears that Roman Centurions carried their swords on their left, regular soldiers on their right.
In regards to battle tactics/leading leg:
From my understanding, the Roman soldier would lead with the left leg when using the shield offensively, and lead with the right leg when using the gladius
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Mar 25, 2013 5:52:21 GMT
From what I know and practiced in martial arts, those last two lines would make a lot of sense.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 25, 2013 14:24:46 GMT
Indeed they do... thing is, usually the scutum is used very offensively, the gladius is employed when there's an opening and chance to hit. The shield does most offensive and defensive actions, actual blade contact as known from medieval longsword or buckler is rather rare. This means the left leg and scutum in leading position was the much more common stance.
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