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Post by Kumdoalan on Jan 9, 2013 1:33:09 GMT
posting photos with better camera now...
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 9, 2013 4:37:39 GMT
Matching sets of antique kozuka (the knife; technically, the handle only is the kozuka, but it's used to refer to handle + blade) and kogai (the spike/pin/other thing; this is what your other knifey thing is meant to imitate) of reasonable quality will easily sell for $100s-$1000s. Just a single kozuka, handle only without a blade (the blade is a kogatana), can be in the medium to high $100s.
Good quality modern ones can be about $100-$200, or more. Kogatana (kozuka blades) can be about $50. The cheaper way to get a modern one is to buy one of the Musashi katana that come with one (about $60 last I looked). Don't know how good they are. Don't know of any cheap swords with reasonable kogai, either.
Modern Chinese fakes like the ones in your photo can also be had for the price of the sword they come with, so that puts an upper limit on what it would be worth for anybody to buy just the kozuka and "kogai".
Websites that sell antique katana will sometimes list kozuka and kogai, and you can find prices that way. Auction catalogs can be good too.
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Post by Krelian on Jan 9, 2013 6:21:20 GMT
The blade on the right looks like an umabari/bashin to me. Value depends on a large number of factors just like it does on any blade. If it's a modern production/reproduction then it'll have a fairly well defined value. If it's an actual antique it could range. Timo's nice rundown gives an accurate range.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Jan 9, 2013 17:42:18 GMT
The sword is from Japan, likely pre-war.
i still have not had a chance to take a good enough photo to have the signature translated as i work out of town during the week.
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Post by Lee Bray on Jan 10, 2013 2:08:31 GMT
If the pic you posted above is of the kozuka and tsuba that came with your sword, you may well have a Chinese fake. The shaping and quality of the above pieces is just not there.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Jan 10, 2013 9:23:18 GMT
The sword itself is from Japan, but the little blades and the matching guard would have to be taken apart I would guess to see if they are signed? Im on the road right now, but it is on my list of things to look into.
And on another matter... i dont use the term "Fake" to describe swords and fittings made in China. I consider the mass-produced swords that this forum is mostly dealing with to be in the same category as the other things we get from China, like TVs and Radios, and everything you can buy at Walmart.
they are not fake, they are just made cheaper for a mass market.
The use of the term "Fake" is a point of contention I have with another internet friend I have gained over the years who does consider all China-made swords and fittings to be "Fake" His view is that of a high price seller of true Japanese swords, so he views stuff made and sold out of China as taking money from him.
But in my view China is just filling a need of consumers for swords in a price range and is also helping spread the love and use of swords around the world.
But he will never agree to that, (we debate that topic a lot over the years I have known him) but to each his own.....
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Post by Lee Bray on Jan 10, 2013 10:02:12 GMT
I did wonder why I bothered. Enjoy your products.
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
Awful lot of leaving and joining going on here for me .... And gosh I can't recall doing a bit of i
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on Jan 10, 2013 11:28:42 GMT
Chinese fakes.
And I do mean fakes.
They were not made to stand alone for by their own merit and provide a useful function for a reasonable price , like many production swords used as training tools.
No , these were made with intent to deceive , to masquerade as something they aren't , with their only real purpose being to separate suckers and their money.
Fakes.
Lee , I understand your sentiment. It is hard to justify spoon-feeding individuals who have a whole world of information at their fingertips , yet can't be bothered to click the keys for 30 seconds to learn the proper names for something before asking others for information , and then picking that information apart.
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 10, 2013 12:18:25 GMT
Yep, if you had spent as much time in research as in these threads, you would understand the previous responses better. Saying that is a fake set, IMHO, is giving it too much credit. Fake stuff at least tries resembles the real thing, which these does not. I could spot 3 things without enlarging the image can you?
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Post by Kumdoalan on Jan 10, 2013 12:52:06 GMT
yes,,always the Chinese make fakes...ahh, yes,,,,,
Like I said my friend who actually sells Japanese swords considers all swords and fittings made in China to be "fakes" as well, so Im used to the term popping up in about every conversation I have had with him. He also NEVER refers to any sword in Japan as a "fake"...and god help me if I brought up swords made in my families home land of Korea...LOL
Its a difference we have in point of view I guess..... I dont consider the iPhone to be fake as well regardless its made in China and as far as I know Bell was not Chinese...LOL :lol:
But like I said before, there are some people that have a history of over-use of the term "fake" when speaking of swords made by the Chinese...
Im reminded of a situation that arose when a friend of mine from church wanted to use a song at a wedding that his pastor objected to because of the questionable motivation of the song writer. I believe that if a person liked the song that that should have been enough and the crazy ideas of the maker so long ago should not be transferred now later on a song and make the song share somehow the guilt the pastor found in the maker... To each his own I guess....
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
Awful lot of leaving and joining going on here for me .... And gosh I can't recall doing a bit of i
Posts: 8,778
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on Jan 10, 2013 14:20:18 GMT
Nope Alan...
The Chinese make plenty of great viable products , including katana . And of course they make plenty of original Chinese swords.
Noone is saying that any edged objects made in China are fakes.
We are saying the fakes in your photo are fakes. Poorly made , likely not heat-treated vaguely shaped like Japanese items that accompany a sword with the same qualities to fool someone into thinking they are buying a true Japanese sword instead of a FAKE. A poorly made fake with no heat treatment.
All the Chinese made Katana i.e. Hanwei , Ronin Katana , Dynasty Forge etc. are NOT fakes . They are replica, or Japanese style swords , etc. and are fine tools for people who need or want katana to use and either can not afford or do not wish to risk true nihonto. I love them... I own several and have reviewed dozens.
What we are all talking about are the fakes... like in your photo.
The distinction is clear , to most who care to see it.
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Post by Lee Bray on Jan 10, 2013 14:23:19 GMT
I have been called out on this before. If I am 'some people', then I would ask that you clarify that and then provide proof, if such, that I was wrong.
Quote, "they are not fake, they are just made cheaper for a mass market."
Your definition of 'fake' is wrong, in my opinion, for forum's sake. Are the Rolex watches and Louis Vuitton handbags that Chinese factories churn out by the thousands, quote, "just filling a need of consumers for swords[watches/handbags] in a price range and is also helping spread the love and use of swords[watches/handbags] around the world."?
I own a few Chinese made, Japanese style katana made by CAS Hanwei and Cold Steel. To me, they are legitimate reproductions and in no way 'fake'. But 'katana' that are made to look like Shingunto or older period blades and peddled on ebay as such and don't even come close to casual observation by an experienced eye are fakes, in my opinion. They are not made to be used, as are legitimate Chinese forge blades, but are wrought from unknown steels and not subject to any heat treatment. They're dangerous. Even forgetting the safety angle, they're just crudely shaped pieces of crud steel knocked out in 10 minutes and sold for 99 cents plus shipping.
But that's a side topic to your pictured pieces. That they come from Japan is no guarantee of authenticity. The Japanese are not without flaws. Ask Blackthorn. :twisted:
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 10, 2013 16:38:24 GMT
I posed a question that went completely unanswered. You do realizing your are bringing semantics on a forum that is pretty much dedicated to cheaply made real or reproduction swords of which many have a Chinese origin. Most of the brands recommended on here are of Chinese origin, and are discussed for their merits and not the lineage of their maker. Again, those pieces do not even deserve to be called fakes. You might get lucky and sell the kozuka/kogatana as a fancy butter knife, pretty sure that is what it was in its past life anyways.
Not saying any of this to be mean, but the information is out there.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 10, 2013 22:56:43 GMT
When these things are called "fakes", it isn't "fake sword" that is meant, but "fake antique". Taking a modern-made sword, artificially aging it, and selling it as an antique makes it a fake antique. Doesn't matter where it's made.
Taking a Chinese-made hand-forged tamahagane blade, and selling it as a Japanese-made gendaito makes it a fake nihonto. If it isn't made in Japan, it isn't a nihonto.
An SLO being sold as a real sword, "battle-ready" or whatever, deceiving the buyer as to it's functionality, would be a fake sword.
If a replica is sold as real, it's a fake.
A modern made Chinese katana, sold as a modern-made Chinese katana, is not a fake. It isn't being made in China that makes Chinese fakes fake, it's being sold as antiques when they are not, or as the real thing when they are replicas.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jan 11, 2013 13:30:25 GMT
I only saw the picture very briefly when browsing with my phone, so I can't say much. The fact that these are matched with the tsuba, might be indicating towards later replicas, and you'd most likely be looking at a full set of matching tosogu. If that full matching set would be authentic antique, then it would have much value, as full sets are hard to come by (however even after seeing that pic briefly I would lean towards Chinese made, but of course I can be wrong). You can search what authentic full matching sets in or out of koshirae go for. There is specific terminology for kozuka and kogai, and the sets being following. Futatokoro mono = Set of kozuka and kogai, usually with similar of matching theme. Mitokoro mono = Set of kozuka, kogai and menuki, with similar or matching theme. Sokanamono = Full matching set made by one artisan, usually of matching theme. These are the terms for matching sets I'm aware of. If there is a kozuka & kogai with matching tsuba or F/K it could be left from sokanamono and rest of the pieces of the set gone missing. Now there are sometimes fake kozuka/kogatana in authentic antique swords too, however the few I've seen have been very plain, as their intention is not to give false impressions, and it's usually very clearly indicated that the small piece is not authentic antique. Here you can see one that I have. It's just a metal tsunagi shaped like a kogatana and kozuka part is just plain wood lacquered black, not trying to be anything fancy. This fills the slot nicely, but does not have any value by itself (well maybe few bucks). If someone would market that above utility knife as authentic, it would be wrong. However it's easy to see that it's a fake utility knife in authentic koshirae, it's just there to fill the slot. So even though the utility knife is real metal and wood it's fake because it's not made properly. Now in these links you can see few Chinese fake swords with fake kozuka/kogai: www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 21424.html www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 57957.html Swords made from real materials, but way they are marketed make them fake to me. These sword don't need appraisals from real samurai sword experts as even with little experience one can easily tell. If they would clearly indicate that they are Chinese made replicas of Japanese swords, I would have no problems calling them replicas, although bad ones. But as they try to pass those as authentic Japanese swords, they are fakes. I agree with Timo on the definition of fake, when you try to pass something as what it isn't it becomes a fake. When you clearly indicate what the piece really is, it's marketed and treated as it should be (real sword of the category it belongs to).
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