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Post by ineffableone on Dec 29, 2012 19:16:19 GMT
I just came across these videos, what do you all think about this guy's thinking of traditional katanas vs tactical katana.
Personally I think he missed some things, like that katana's were used out in wet environments for centuries, they had developed water resistant covers to put over the handle to protect the sword. And the simple ability to break down your sword and clean and dry it with a traditional katana should not be over looked. Not to mention his description of guys lined up ready to battle with swords is totally inaccurate. The katana was not a primary weapon, it was only used for after the bow and spear were lost, in other words in the middle of much chaos and carnage, not neat lined up armies.
Also there is a reason for a smooth polished blade. That having a matte painted blade will effect your cutting ability.
But I do give the guy some props for his tsuka design and going out of the box to make something different.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 1:17:30 GMT
He's actually more or less on the right point, which most people don't realise. The guy is correct in saying that a traditional katana hilt is a great showpiece but totally impractical for a survival situation... War is such a a survival situation.
The part of history that is lost on most people is that katana did not always look like the ones we reproduce, what we reproduce in this modern era are Edo period 400 year peacetime pampered dress swords worn by aristocrats, which might have seen the odd duel, but were morer fashion statements and showcases of what swordmakers could craft. The delicate fabrics and fittings in the hilt, the abundance of areas to accumulate dirt, filth blood and other unsavory materials is phenomenal. Worst of all, it;s all prone to absorbing water and rotting.
Anyone who thinks a katana in the format we have now can be used for battle is sadly mistaken. I guess most people have never had blood on their hands before so that's understandable, but even if anyone hunts and has gotten animal blood on their knives, etc, they are well aware of the putrid, stinking unhygenic mess that creates in a vey short time if it's not washed off thoroughly. It's not red paint like in the movies kids! If you don't wash this out it will stink to high heaven and become filled with germs. It will rot and rot everything organic (mnatural materials) with it. If anyone's ever been cut badly and had gauze and bangage packing the wound to check the blood flow, you would know from experience that the blood soaked gauze is foul and that's the thing they put in a biohazard bin in hospitals, and if the cotton bandage gets blood on it, it's disposed of, you don't even try to wash it.
Now, lets go back to our pretty Edo period dress sword, which wouldn't handle falling in the mud without destroying the better part of the hilt. The cotton or silk ito, once blood soaked, would need to be removed. It would also seep under the ito onto the samegawa, so unless you unwrap the ito, and scrub the samegawa under cold water, blood would dry between the nodes and stay there. Remember, blood clotting is a way of making a tight bond to tie a wound together, factors in blood form chains which entangle, like a biological glue. If it gets under the samegawa and onto the raw wood tsuka (more likely on a panel wrap), then it would probably need sanding as well. Also, all those neat little hishigame folded paper triangles will work great soaking up and retaining blood in a really nasty way.
If its not blood, or mud, there's rain (and heavy sweating!). Sure every culture has used rain covers for swords, but which battle in recorded history stopped for time-out when it started raining? It doesn't happen. Human agression cares little for wet weather! These 'traditional hilts' or more correctly fasjhion swoird hilts are not waterproof. They are not meant to be because they were designed as fashion sword hilts, period! Having delicate materials and finely crafted miniature sculptures on your sword hilt does not enhance the combat functionality in any way, it probably hinders it. It does increase aesthetic value tremendously though, so what does that tell you about its intended use. It's like wearing a tuxedo to dig a ditch in a paddock...
The fact is that Japanese did make sword hilt that were more functional and weatherproof. A practical Sengoku period (Warring States Period) katana is not going to look anthing like a glitzy Edo period fashion katana.
To make swords for fuction rather than show, they used simpler, more durable fittings, which were all lacquered, the samegawa, then the ito as well, to seal the hilt as much as possible against the ingress of moisture. If they could epoxy-dip their whole hilts back then they probably would have! Satsuma rebellion fittings were extremely crude, as was the wrapping, the best way would be to describe it would be 'whatever gets the job done'. Most of the bindings were made from green-dyed folded hemp cloth strips, often in a simple spiral wrap.
Euro sword guys have no issue between telling apart their battle swords from their dress/fashion/court swords mainly because they are a different shape, but it appears that the identical shape of katana and the general misinformation and ignorance of history leads many newbies to assume unquestioningly that their pretty Edo dress swords are 'apocalypse battle swords' that can be used in survival situations. The reality is, if people want a more durable, weather resistant katana similar to those used in Japan's Warring period, then they would need to ditch the pretty fittings for proper durable ones, and waterproof the components that are not weatherproof. At the vey least you would need to lacquer the samegawa and ito, at best you would stabilize the tsuka wood by submerging it in the epoxy in a vacuum container, so it becomes impregnated with epoxy and becomes a synthetic composite, like micarta. Then you put the lacquered samegawa on, and wrap it with leather or cotton and then lacuer that so it soaks it in well and becomes waterproof. Then you still have the issue with the fragile saya which can absorb water. The Chinese solved that problem long ago with a guard design that is like a cup thet fits over and seals the mouth of the scabbard. The Chinese did fight in the rain, considering they built the largest empire the world has ever seen, chances are they did get wet a few times when conquering the greater portion of the world!
Or, you can simply get a modern equivalent with sythetic composite handles, and a sythetic saya, a simple solution to the problem. Then there's the blade rusting. Tests have shown thet the plasma caoting on the Hanwei tTactical series works extremely well in preventing rust. That's why the appear of these swords, all the issues solved in one cheap, durable package.
For goodness sake folks, when going outdoors, please leave the fashioon swords (and the tuxedo fr that matter!) where they belong - indoors! :shock:
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Post by Sullivan on Dec 31, 2012 7:18:13 GMT
I had seen this video a few months ago, a short time after I had bought my first live (sharp) blade, and was researching the pros and cons of certain sword fittings. Although I feel that, often, a lot of swords marketed towards those looking for "tactical" blades for survival in situations (like a zombie apocalypse), can be kind of gimmicky, some of the ideas used in their design can be of great merit. I watched this guy's video and was fascinated, and impressed, with a great deal of what he had tried out on this blade. With that said, upon thinking about it further after my initial review, I found that he had been sort of "hit and miss" with certain aspects of this blade and it's fittings.
Again, I believe that he showed a good deal of ingenuity in some of his design elements, but one thing that got to me was his opting to forgo the hand-guard (tsuba) that is customarily seen on Nihonto and Japanese-style swords. In presenting us with this weapon, he repeatedly reminds us that his blade is meant to be ideal in the worst of battle/survival/melee situations. In the midst of battle, it is meant to endure conditions such as pouring rain, muddy terrain, with it's ability to perform evisceration on top of decapitation retained (can't stop rapping). But, he nonchalantly dismisses the need for a tsuba, stating "unless you're trying to full-force stab a boulder with it, it's not going to slip through your fingers and lay waste to your precious digits like a band-saw through butter", I am of course paraphrasing. Now, the flaw I see here, is that if the blade and handle are going to be lubricated (for lack of a better word) by all the gunk and muck inherent to battle and bloody survival, would that not be conducive to the tsuka slipping down through your grip? Now, he claims that the material he constructed the mounting out of is pretty grippy, and I can not attest to, nor deny, that statement. Maybe it would stand up to these tests, but this is my main critique. Whether it's a fatal design flaw, I don't know. An easy improvement to make, all-in-all.
In his video he seems to (generally) know what he's talking about, and has a certain level of respect for traditional katana (notice that he keeps an un-altered Cheness to accompany his tac-sword), though he does make comments in passing that lead one to get the impression that he may disdain the tendency for enthusiasts, like us, to sanctify the artistic sentiment held for traditionally-made Nihonto, and koshirae that some would deem "gaudy". Again, I could be wrong. However you see it, katana have evolved over centuries, and are one of Japans most treasured symbols. Somewhat paradoxically, the Japanese display both the tendency to hold tight to tradition, and the ability to make ingenious technological advances. The katana is a perfect embodiment of this contradictory outlook. Japanese sword-smiths are known for creating, and making use of, game changing forging techniques. On the other hand, to the untrained eye, it would seem that not much has been done to improve upon the practical usage of it's traditional mountings. As noted above, the Japanese themselves knew when to ditch the pretty silken ito, and place their blades in fittings with some tolerance for grit and grime.
One thing that I do see as a debatable tactic he employed, is the paint he used on the blade. Again, the aforementioned flaw regarding the paint (or whatever it is) and it's effects on the cutting ability, are of concern. BUT, that is something that you could go back-and-forth on, as it really comes down to what concession you wish to make, cutting power with high reflectivity and greater risk of rust? Or having an easier time staying incognito and combating rust, but a (maybe slightly) harder time cleaving through your opponent?
In conclusion, I like the ideas he was coming with, but as the man in the video thought when looking upon his Cheness, it too can be improved upon (in my eyes).
Man, am I longwinded. :roll:
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Post by Fifteenthirty on Mar 26, 2013 11:36:43 GMT
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Post by Onimusha on Apr 1, 2013 23:43:37 GMT
Before I start commenting, I would like to point out that I've never been in a sword fight. I don't plan on it either. Even in an apocalypse situation, it's unlikely, but, as a famous general said, "in battle, we're taught to give the enemy three choices of action. He will always take the fourth." As far as the paint on the blade affecting cutting ability, you don't have to sever limbs to disable them, and you don't have to cleave an opponent in two in order to end his life. Chances are, you wouldn't be able to accomplish the latter with the sharpest, smoothest blade on earth, in the heat of battle. I'd use some sort of bake on finish myself. The lacquered ito and same looks like a good idea. The koshirae in the picture has held up well anyway. If you just had to have a traditional look, you could put that over a fiberglass tsuka core. I'll be doing that at some point down the road. You guys will be the first to hear about it. That being said, one could question whether or not a katana is the best apocalypse sword. Their blades are not as resilient as other types. I know, I know. There are TH spring steel katanas, but are those really katanas, or two handed sabers with katana hilts? That's open to debate. We're talking about "classical" katanas. That, to me, means DH.
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Post by oolong dao on Apr 12, 2013 19:09:17 GMT
between this and another post, my love of walnut has been murdered.
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Post by jlwilliams on Dec 29, 2013 2:21:09 GMT
Apologies for re-animating a dead thread.
I get where the guy is going, and his position has merit. The fact that there are so many historical precedents speaks volumes to the benefits of simple, no BS swords. I agree that he apparently views "samurai swords" as being just as Hollywood depicts them, which is as they were made during the era when samurai were poet/martial artists rather than the periods when they were man-killers. So, accordingly, he has modified his katana to represent what he sees as more in line with what he wants; and he wants a weapon rather than art.
I think that there is a feature he missed that would have improved the practicality of the sword. (not going to address the idea of katana as 'practical' melee weapons. I'm just going to accept that this is the frame of reference we are using for this conversation) I think he should have made a latch to keep the sword in the saya. That is the Achilles heel of the katana as melee weapon. Imagine running, fighting, doing whatever you have to do; and a couple feet of sharp steel comes sailing out and skittering across the ground, or across your own femoral artery, just when you don't want it to. The combat swords used in WWII had latches. When modern combat becomes bayonet combat, sword out. The rest of the time, sword in.
He isn't alone in his position. Bit by bit we see more companies offering 'tactical' swords. Some of them are really bad on every level, others are really good swords. The one feature I haven't seen on any modern 'tactical' katana or wak is the latch. I don't understand why that is. The design work has been done. There is the historical precedent so it would even be bearable by purists. Why no company hasn't copied the cast handled NCO Gunto in high impact polymer is anybody's guess. It would be as tactical as any katana could be, since it is a copy of a katana used in 20th century warfare. Heck, the late war swords were in effect designed FOR modern warfare by combining classic looking design with modern manufacturing and putting a latch on it so you could actually run with it.
I know I've gone on about this in other threads, so I apologize for beating the same drum over and over. It is a clear gap in the market. Why the industry is willing to go to great lengths in other areas of the art and won't do squat when it comes to saya/scabbards as a whole and retention systems in specific is a mystery to me.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Dec 29, 2013 2:55:44 GMT
How do you figure this? Most 'tactical' swords that I've seen that come with a scabbard tend to come with one of two kinds of sheath: leather/nylon with a button clasp around the grip, such as is found on just about every Cold Steel machete, or some form of kydex, which tend to have a retention system built in in the form of a clamp that fits over whatever vestigial guard the sword has (and if done right, it renders any button clasp or scabbard latch redundant and a feel good measure, like putting an external safety on a Glock).
The only 'tactical' swords I've seen that don't have one of the above either don't come with a scabbard in the first place or are one of several Hanwei clones (the Hanwei Tactical line, the Munetoshi Tactical Wakizashi, and the United Cutlery Honshu Tactical line).
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Post by frankthebunny on Dec 29, 2013 4:36:51 GMT
I disagree that all "dress katana" are absolutely so susceptible to the elements. When a tsuka core is enveloped in high quality samegawa and is then lacquered, then wrapped in silk which is then soaked in lacquer, and then the tsuka is adorned with shibuichi, shakudo, copper, or silver fittings, this makes for a pretty durable liquid, rot, and rust resistant handle. The saya also being lacquered is good protection for the blade not to mention a properly oiled blade. While blood isn't ideal hygienically, as long as it isn't the blood of a xenomorph or Roark Jr., I doubt it would be such a problem as long as it's rinsed off. Japan has a very harsh climate as far as humidity and heat and the patina used on many metal parts was developed and used to maintain the health of these fittings in these conditions. All of these swords might not be as delicate as one might think.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Dec 31, 2013 16:44:12 GMT
I am tempted to test Mr Bunny's (historically informed) hypothesis. I have a beater I can dedicate to this project. 1. Seal the Ito with varathane spray (water borne polyurethane). 2. Seal any exposed wood on the saya, but not inside the saya. 3. Might even be tempted to drill a drain hole in the bottom of the saya (ala Hanwei Tactical Wak/Kat) 4. Leave the blade "in the white" for now (flat gray spray option later). With minimal effort it should be possible to produce a washable katana. But if zombie blood/gore is infectious, this whole effort is for naught.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Jan 1, 2014 15:31:07 GMT
First follow-up:
I sprayed the wrap thoroughly with the Varathane spray (satin). It's drying and venting, because the smell is strong. I imagine with time (48 hours) that will subside.
The wrap is a little stiffer than before application, but not rough. I am planning a second "coat" today.
Because I am applying after wrapping and not to the Ito before, the side of the wrap against the tsuka may not be adequately treated. This consideration is prompting the second coat. Barry Dawson epoxied his wrap to the handle of his Millennium series for an impervious and permanent structure. That is still an option.
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Post by jlwilliams on Jan 1, 2014 15:39:46 GMT
Good plan.
I know that some folks like to use the epoxy wood stabilizer on Para cord wraps. The wood stabilizer is a thin epoxy that is designed to penetrate (via capillary action) for use in home restoration. I've seen it used to make a dried out, almost completely desiccated sill plate stay put in a 200+ year old house. It really is an amazing epoxy goo. Anyway, you can dip (a little much IMO) or brush it into a cord wrap and get good results.
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Post by Chuditch on Jan 2, 2014 6:11:12 GMT
Just an idea that formed in my head in regard to 'traditional' Tsuka components.... thinking about how many people play around with their swords these days, dressing them up and down, changing stuff is half the fun....
Would it not be feasible that it was common to have the tsuka and it's component parts changed after every bloody mud soaking? I wonder how much different the ancients were to us in this aspect of keeping katana? Most of us are fastidious and careful about the care of our swords, maintaining the blade and changing it's 'clothing' often... i think they were if not the same, then similar in this aspect. nothing protects a blade like keeping it clean and it's accoutrements in good condition.
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Post by frankthebunny on Jan 2, 2014 7:01:26 GMT
What I described above is a different process than what is being tested by LJ. By lacquering the full wrap of samegawa before itomaki is done, you get a more thoroughly sealed core. I also mix the lacquer used to soak the ito with thinner and massage it in so it penetrates the fibers preventing moisture from getting underneath as well as to keep it from building up on top to form a hard plastic-like surface which can be uncomfortable to some. There are of course some historical examples where the lacquer is applied specifically to be hard and solid. I did design one of my katana to be a tactical hybrid While I used traditional materials for most of the build including real full wrap samegawa(which I painted before itomaki), leather ito, regular parts and pieces, etc., I did use a modern auto paint called POR15 which is essentially bullet proof, to completely seal the tsuka and snakeskin saya. I didn't epoxy the tsuka on but I did cover the mekugi in the paint so it's also highly water resistant if not completely waterproof. By painting the saya with this, the wood underneath would be destroyed before you would see even one crack in the paint. My point was that by using traditional and historical methods, the Japanese managed to make even the "dress" swords pretty durable in many cases.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Jan 4, 2014 2:21:41 GMT
Beautiful, Frank. I remember the zombie-themed saya paint job.
Wow. The Ito looks like leather after the treatment and the POR15.
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Post by justin520 on Jan 4, 2014 3:51:54 GMT
To expand on franks idea, have the inside of the saya have a fur or faux fur lining so as to retain oil, this way your sword is more easily maintained.
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Post by justin520 on Jan 4, 2014 4:09:21 GMT
Also does that POR15 come in clear, you know, so as to see a good look at the natural stuff of the sword but still be tactical.
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Post by Onimusha on Jan 4, 2014 12:39:28 GMT
Frank has also started making derlin mekugi. That, combined with the rest of the techniques mentioned here will give you a pretty good "apocalypse" weapon. What we have to remember when discussing these things is that swords are weapons. They are meant to be used a certain way. They are not meant to be sharp clubs to bash away at helmets and other armor, and no modification will allow you to use your katana as a crowbar without damaging it. The same goes for euros. A scene from "King Arthur" (the Clive Owen one) comes to mind. The knights go into a dungeon and start cutting chains and locks with their swords. They make it look effortless. That's hollywood. We all know that such things only result in edge rolling and dented locks.
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Post by frankthebunny on Jan 10, 2014 8:30:53 GMT
Thanks Larry. The ito is leather I would avoid using anything in the saya that retains oil and has direct contact with the blade since this will trap debris and moisture near or on the blade and will cause rusting. Especially not in a survival situation where you wouldn't always have the luxury of completely cleaning your blade after use before having to re-sheath it. The best thing you can do in my opinion is to make sure you have as tight a seal when sheathed as possible.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Jan 11, 2014 0:44:22 GMT
Now, that is embarrasing... I did not read your post carefully enough. I thought you had found an alchemic technique for transforming cotton ito into "leather."
When refinishing a saya, what do you recommend for prep? Complete physical or chemical stripping of the existing finish? Or can it be "roughted up" and painted over?
What about faux buffulo horn? Does this need to be removed and reattached, when refininshing a saya. Thnx!
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