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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 2:07:57 GMT
Does anyone know from first-hand how sharp Albions come straight from the vendor? I know it is rather hard to judge sharpness, but as they are over $600, is the sharpness relative to a katana, a Gen2, or cold steel?
I know its a weird question but it has been bothering me lately. Down the road I will purchase a squire line and add sharpening. I would would be terrified of sharpening it myself and ruining the finish.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 3, 2007 2:30:23 GMT
It depends on the sword. EG.
Typically the "Knight" comes paper sharp, however the type XI's (my ritter for example) won't cut paper, but are still more than sharp enough to do anything you could reasonably ask.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 5:40:00 GMT
My second-hand Gaddhajlt, incidentally a Oaskeshott Type X/XI, isn't razor-sharp, too. It's definitely not as sharp as those katanas, I feel.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 7:38:19 GMT
Albion will sharpen their squire line per request. I think it was something like an extra $25?? So you wouldn't have to worry about it.
Unless you were planning on sharpening it beyond that?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 20:25:45 GMT
Albion will sharpen their squire line per request. I think it was something like an extra $25?? So you wouldn't have to worry about it. Unless you were planning on sharpening it beyond that? Im just interested. Tsafa has said that european swords dont need to be very sharp at all to perform well. Ive always been interested in this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 20:33:14 GMT
It's true. They don't. I was reading somewhere that at a ARMA cutting outing, one guy was able to cut through a tatami mat with dowel core with an unsharpened bastard sword. I'll see if I can find it.* Sharpness is only relative to the function. Large war swords would frequently encounter armor, so they wouldn't be as sharp as say, an arming sword used in duels. *Edit: Here it is. Near the bottom of the page, under videos. www.thearma.org/photos/Gathering03/testcutting.htm
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 0:54:07 GMT
Albion will sharpen their squire line per request. I think it was something like an extra $25?? So you wouldn't have to worry about it. Unless you were planning on sharpening it beyond that? It depends on the swords - some come sharpened, but not those in the squire line I believe. Ancalagon
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 2:43:19 GMT
Albion swords are beautiful, no doubt. But honestly, even though it's very much NOT traditional, I found myself attracted to the Samson Katana by Jody more than anything, haha. That is a sick design. I would love to see how it handled.
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Post by ShooterMike on Dec 4, 2007 2:47:42 GMT
Even the sharp ones vary from sword to sword. I have two Albions that are almost identical, a Knight and a Laird. They share the same blade and very similar grips. They even fit in the same scabbard. The only real differences are the guard and pommel. But one cuts like a laser while the other, even after being sharpened to be much sharper, only cuts mediocre. Go figure... ![:-/](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) IMO just about all of Albion's sharp swords come with "historically accurate" edges, i.e. they won't cut paper. Which means they aren't extremely sharp, but they still cut when used with proper technique. But then that's the whole reason we practice huh? ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by rammstein on Dec 4, 2007 2:48:43 GMT
Mike I heard firsthand from albion that the Knight at least should cut paper. Or be pretty darn close.
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Post by ShooterMike on Dec 4, 2007 2:53:26 GMT
Mine wouldn't when I got it. But then it had probably been used quite a bit. However, the "keenness" ?sp? of the edge was just about like my Laird (which was "as-new"). After sharpening, the Knight will cut paper with ease now. But it still doesn't cut as well on light targets as the Laird, which won't even start to cut paper.
Just goes to show that swords, even in today's mass-produced world, are very much individuals in their own right, huh?
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Post by rammstein on Dec 4, 2007 20:07:16 GMT
VERY well put! Karma for you!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 20:19:24 GMT
While it's true swords don't need to be very sharp to cut well, they can't be blunt either, as arma would have you to believe.
I've met a lot of ren. faire folk that insist that european swords are blunt impact weapons. I try my best to disillusion them of their fallacy, but usually to no avail. Some I just challenge to duels and that usually takes care of things.
But anyway, don't rely too heavily on what you see in those ARMA videos. Yes, he cut a tatami mat with a dowel core with a relatively unsharpened sword, but his 'clean' cut wasn't exactly as 'clean' as one would be led to believe, and also take a look at how he swung. It's hard to see, being in the very first frames of the clip - but I refuse to be taught, either directly or indirectly, by *that*. Maybe if I was a baseball player, or one of those guys at a carnival that has to use the hammer to hit the little slider up it's track to hit a bell.
Just look at the coldsteel swordproof videos - anyone with some weight and/or muscle to throw around can do some serious damage with a sword. Then look at some of the masters cutting tameshigiri, where the mat barely moves and drops nicely right at the base of the cutting stand; the cutter remaining on balance and centered throughout. I'd much rather have good coordinated technique than an angry baseball bat swing any day of the week.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 20:36:21 GMT
Your right of course. I was just using it as an example. I find it quite amusing that all the Cold Steel guys are built like brick outhouses. Heheheh.... looks like you've got a little chip on your shoulder about those ARMA guys. Don't worry, I agree. ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 20:50:48 GMT
It's from all that meat they cut up. They have barbecues directly following the filming.
Notice how in their most recent videos, the new guys are much skinnier - they haven't gotten a chance at all that meat yet... next time they'll be bulkier, just you wait and see.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 20:55:34 GMT
Kind of mildly OT, but I kind of disagree with what Adam has to say. While it's true swords don't need to be very sharp to cut well, they can't be blunt either, as arma would have you to believe. Not a Ren Faire folk, but I agree that swords could be both blunt and sharp impact weapons, depending on the opponent. Fighting someone who isnt wearing anything to protect against the sharp ends of a sword, definately a sharp impact weapon. Someone wearing the contemporary armour of their time (usually mail or plate), the sword turns into a blunt impact weapon. I have seen people have concussions after being hit with "grass" (aka. SCA rattan combat), and I am sure that the same person (if they knew/grew up with practicing good edge control) could easily do the same to others in armour. Mostly because historical armour is less well built than some of what I see (with regards to steel thickness, uniformity, etc). A 4th-13th century person hit with a well placed strike on any extremity (arm/leg/etc.) could easily have had a broken limb, without being cut at all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 21:04:23 GMT
It's from all that meat they cut up. They have barbecues directly following the filming. Notice how in their most recent videos, the new guys are much skinnier - they haven't gotten a chance at all that meat yet... next time they'll be bulkier, just you wait and see. GRRRRR..... I LIKE MEAT!!! ![>:(](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/angry.png) ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 21:07:13 GMT
Kind of mildly OT, but I kind of disagree with what Adam has to say. While it's true swords don't need to be very sharp to cut well, they can't be blunt either, as arma would have you to believe. Mostly because historical armour is less well built than some of what I see (with regards to steel thickness, uniformity, etc). Yeah, you SCA guys seem to make your armor RPG proof. Historical armour was not as thick as most people believed. They layered themselves too.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 4, 2007 21:07:32 GMT
Oswyn.
You're right in your conclusions as to what swords are capable of, however, I disagree with the overall message. A shovel is a blunt impact weapon, but it certainly wasn't designed to be such. A sword is MEANT to cut through flesh. If its blunt impact that is required theres multitude of items that could be used to fit that bill and would do that job quite a bit more successfully than any sword.
A sword's geometry is specifically designed to cut (or thrust, but we'll pretend like we're talking about earlier models).
edit: Also, you wouldn't try to cut against someone in plate - swords would have had moderately serviceable points in the plate era and hence, the thrust - preferably halfsworded - would have been the means to take out a man in armour. To prove my point, just take a look at "armoured combat" on youtube. People whale at each other full force with steel blunts while wearing full suits of armour - no damage is done.
DI, you're right, but it didn't mean to be. Armour's primary goal wasn't only to absorb the whole shock, but also to deflect. As such, you tended to find even munitions grade armour would fit the wearer a whole heck of a lot better than most SCA armour. And when something fits well enough, the deflection provided can be fully maximized.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 21:12:48 GMT
Ramm, that looks like some good fun there.
As for using different weapons to combat plate, your absolutely right. By the age of plate, swords had been relegated to a secondary role. Poleaxes were the "It'" thing to have, because you could smash, poke or hack anything in your path while keeping some breathing room between you and your target.
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