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Post by etiennehamel on Dec 8, 2012 16:09:36 GMT
i'm thinking of buying a dao probably an oxtail one since i'm very fond of the design but i have two choices, either a huanuo one from sevenstartrading.com or one from Jin-shi. this one is a huanuo one picture taken from sevenstartrading.com  this one is a jin-shi one but they are not in production yet but when they are i'll probably have the funds to buy either of the two.  i'd like to know which one you would choose and why. |
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Post by Rafael on Dec 8, 2012 20:36:59 GMT
Hypothetically speaking since the jinshi swords are not in production yet and the sevenstars huanos are currently out of stock, if both were available I would get the Huanuo if I wanted something right away. If I could stand to wait for it to be custom made by jinshi then I would get the jinshi one because Garrett will let you use your choice of steel and will probably also have the option for differential hardening. All of the sub thousand dollar huanuo stuff including the oxtail are all made with 5160 Spring steel and through hardened. Since I would rather have T10 steel and a nice hamon on an oxtail, if I could stand waiting I would get the jinshi. Of course it's a moot point since Garrett is not making the oxtails and may not be for quite some time, sevenstars will definitely have the other one back in stock within a few months.
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Post by Dr. Whom on Dec 8, 2012 21:12:08 GMT
I would get a Dynasty Forge OxTail Dao...I just got the Goosetail Saber Dao by them and it is awesome and great quality. I love swinging it around.
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Post by Rafael on Dec 8, 2012 21:17:04 GMT
How long did it take for your dynasty forge goose quill to arrive after ordering? It's been about seven days and I haven't gotten any shipping information about mine yet.
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Post by Dr. Whom on Dec 8, 2012 21:34:02 GMT
I ordered on the 26th and got a shipping email on Dec 4th...It arrived today (I am in Michigan and about 6 hours from Toronto so these have to go through customs if you are in the US)
I hope Dynasty Forge puts more stuff on the SBG store because anything Paul recommends is almost always a good buy (Even Cheness if you accept them for what they are- beaters)
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Post by Rafael on Dec 8, 2012 21:48:01 GMT
I think all of the dynasty forge and cold steel Chinese blade are made by Huanuo. At least going by what the fittings look like
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2012 22:35:52 GMT
Cold Steel's Chinese swords are made by Huanuo, but to Cold Steel's specifications, that's the difference.
Not sure how a product that has never come into production (and may never do) actually can be considered as a buying option??? :?
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Post by MakChingYuen on Dec 9, 2012 0:06:58 GMT
I like the Huanuo one, the jin-shi one look too "raw" and too ugly to me. It's not cheap too, for sure, and so why spend the money on something like that? Even it's good piece of "steel", I don't like the design and the look. Huanuo's dao is pretty nice looking from the picture already. Hope CS have a new dao out soon or later in the future, I missed their willowleaf era and just know they got one before! argh~
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Post by Turok on Dec 9, 2012 9:23:52 GMT
Ah, so we have another member looking for a dao!  Unfortunately there is not much options for daos, or almost anything in the production Chinese sword market right now...Etiennehamel, it really depends on whether you're willing to wait (which might take forever :roll: ) or to get one in the market right now. But I'll also give you my opinions: Huanuo is really good, they produce swords for Cold Steel and Dynasty Forge! I believe that the nuiweidao in your picture is the same one CS used to offer YEARS ago, and if it is then get it! I used to see one at a local shop and I always regretted not getting it. One of the best daos I've ever handled hands down! The yanmaodao and luiyedao that Dynasty Forge offers are also excellent products and there are several proud owners here in this board...Jinshi also has a fine reputation but I wish it also included pics of the scabbard and more descriptions about the sword. It's been a long time since Jinshi has updated their stuff too, and I would go with Dynasty Forge/Huanuo because there is simply a plethora of information available about their swords. Or if you're really on a budget like me, then just wait it out and see what happens. I'm hoping that next year there will be more news announced and more opportunities for Chinese sword collectors LOL! |
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Post by Rafael on Dec 9, 2012 18:25:27 GMT
The jinshi blade looks unfinished because it is.. That pic is supposed to showcase what the blade will look like. The fittings on any production model would almost certainly have some sort of decoration, or at the very least be polished. I admit the debate is purely theoretical, but given the criteria stated by the OP I would say another reason to go with jinshi is that the blade is actually made to your order, not mass produced by Huanuo. It seems to me that more chances arise for a blade to have hidden flaws if it is mass produced. Repetition is the mother of skill, but it is also only through sufficient magnitudes of repetition that all possibilities (including all possible manufacturer flaws or stealth rust or whatever) can be realized. Or to say it another way, you only f-k up every possible way by trying to do something enough times. As repetition breeds, skill the relative proportion of errors should decrease, but if enough swords get made eventually some lemons should be produced even by a ultimate grandmaster triple-secret-probation über Swordmith. however Huanuo production blades are probably not being made by the best smiths they have. And when you get good enough at making $500 (msrp) oxtail dao you probably get graduated onto making $2000 Imperial Dragon Dao. And maybe the best smiths they have only do custom work.
The above is mostly speculation, but still I would rather have a semi-unique custom-made blade, all other things being equal. Have Garrett make yours an inch and a half shorter or longer, and it's like ordering your drive-through burger without mustard just to force them to make you a fresh one!
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Post by Daishikaze on Dec 9, 2012 21:13:30 GMT
As I understand it, Cold steel insists on 1055, where as I believe Huanuo normally uses a blend of 1095/1085/1060 on their blades. Of course I imagin CS wants to keep costs down so they go for 1055 instead of the higher quality blend of steels
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Post by Rafael on Dec 9, 2012 22:09:32 GMT
My understanding was everything that huano makes sold by seven stars trading in the $500 or less price range is all made of mono 5120 spring steel. It's $30,000 and higher stuff probably some of the $800 ones as well that are made with old steel using a mixture of the types you mentioned. it makes me wonder about the goose will though because that one is listed as made of the three types of steel pulled together. I have the oxtail from seven stars trading though and it is definitely not folded steel although I guess it could still be a mixture of steels. Mr. Rodell told me it was 5160 Spring steel. As far as cold steel and their special specifications from the Huanuo, I definitely believe that the swords made for cold steel are thicker and a bit heavier and therefore designed to take and deliver a bit more punishment than usual. For example their regular gim is I think about 4 ounces heavier than a standard jian. I guess it's possible that the steel being used is .55% carbon instead of .6% like all the other stuff. But true 1055 carbon steel should just be .55% carbon plus a bit of silicon and Iron, and most modern steels contain some manganese by default. So if the main difference between 1055 and 5160 is the 5160 has more silicon and is a manganese alloy I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not so sure the cold steel isn't just using 5160 blades in their Chinese swords made by Huanuo. The alternative would be to believe that they are making special steel which is different by only .05% carbon content just for the swords they make for cold steel. whatever steel theyare made out of I like them a lot  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2012 22:49:50 GMT
Yes, the cheaper Haunuo swords are made of 5160 spring steel, which is more than adequate for their intended function as fully battle-ready swords! The fancy laminations I believe add a bit more resilience to the blade, folding the steel is purely cosmetic when you consider the purity of modern steels.
Cold Steel intentionally overbuild their blades to make them better able to withstand abuse - that's the market they're targetiing, and yes, they do use 1055 as their choice of steel, that's what they specify and that's what Huanuo builds for them. They use 1055 steel on all their swords, not just their Chinese ones, so if you want to know why they choose 1055, best you ask them!
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Post by Daishikaze on Dec 9, 2012 23:23:14 GMT
Oh really? So in some ways CS's models are better? Interesting
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Post by Rafael on Dec 9, 2012 23:33:27 GMT
The CS gim is supposed to be sturdier, but I've heard that the CS dao was seemingly identical to the Huanuo version. I don't own one so i don't known first hand.
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Post by Turok on Dec 10, 2012 2:55:39 GMT
well, I still think its best to stick with Huanuo and with what you know untill we hear more about Jinshi. We haven't heard much from Jinshi in a very long time so we don't know when they will make their nuiweidao. Either way you'll be waiting a while for a dao because sevenstarstrading, the only supplier of Huanuo in the US, is out of stock too.
I've handled several CS items before and I can tell you that they definitely overbuild their stuff...not that it's a bad thing imho! Their katanas are like clubs and their western sabers are like heavy wretches! It's still durable as hell, just a little historically inaccurate...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 4:54:15 GMT
I said 'over built', not better!  A lot of Cold Steel blades (non-Chinese style swords) are built far too heavy as Turok has already mentioned. Great for beaters, not good for balance and handling, so not ideal for form practise. I believe their Chinese blades are often on the heavier end of the historical scale but are probably still within the historical range. Their dadao isn't, it's too short and heavy in my opinion, I've handles it, it handles like an axe, no wonder it can chop through anything! The Huanuo swords are built based on historical sword specifications - size, weight, balance and handling, and experts in their field such as Scott Rodell provide Huanuo with feedback to improve their products. Cold Steel takes standard size swords and beefs them up for the American market so people can chop up things that swords don't normally cut. Jin Shi only has 3 jian and one dao for sale, and the dao and one jian are both Han period style, which is great if you're into ancient Chinese weapons - literally historically ancient (remember Han period is from 206 BC – 220 AD), these are on par with a Roman gladius in vintage, the oxtail design came around 1,500 years later, so if you're collecting Chinese swords from the last 500 years, the Jin Shi range is very limited. The other of their jian is Tang Dynasty (618–906), and I'm not sure what period their Fei Long (Flying Dragon) jian falls within. Does anyone know? We need to realise that when we are discussing Chinese swords across a wide historical period, they aren't all the same! If your after later period stuff, ie. Qing period, which is what most martial artists use or train with if I'm not mistaken, then you won't find any of that sold at Jin Shi! Wih that in mind it should make your choices a bit more clear when comparing the offerings of various companies. |
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Post by Gundoggy on Dec 10, 2012 4:58:51 GMT
The Jinshi Oxtail prototype was designed with specifications from an antique that I own that has plain iron fittings. Most historical Oxtails were civilian weapons and there are a class of antiques now termed "Village swords". These are relatively plainly fitted swords with good quality blades and solid construction, designed to do the job. Iron fittings were common in such weapons.
(PS. I am not Garrett, not related to Garrett, nor do I have any business dealings in Jin shi. I am a antique Chinese sword collector who decided to open up my collection to Garrett so that he can design modern swords that are as close a copy to antique examples as possible! Like the rest of you I am anxiously awaiting to see his new designs in production!)
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Post by Gundoggy on Dec 10, 2012 5:04:15 GMT
Huanuo blades are very ruggedly built for test cutting. They're also very solidly hilted which is very important. While I dislike the flat diamond geometry they are affordable and good swords for practitioners not planning to do any real crossing of blades! They are also available now. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 5:23:25 GMT
Gundoggy, would you know what period the Jin Shi Fei Long (Flying Dragon) jian is meant to correspond to?
Also good point, most swords historically owned by commoners would be in plain fittings, we can have the luxury with reproduction swords of reproducing the highly decorative and most aestetically pleasing ones!
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Unfortunately there is not much options for daos, or almost anything in the production Chinese sword market right now...Etiennehamel, it really depends on whether you're willing to wait (which might take forever :roll: ) or to get one in the market right now. But I'll also give you my opinions:
