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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 23, 2012 4:58:37 GMT
Why swords do not bend and flex? Why are tai chi swords (the common term) that flex are not real swords? Take a look at the test and you will know why. Now imagine people with armor and much tougher steel armors.. what then?
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Post by Gundoggy on Nov 23, 2012 7:46:42 GMT
Hi! Excellent visual of why real swords were more 'stiff' than most modern people believe. Unfortunately at his point in time there are at least a few generations of very skilled Tai Chi practitioners who have never seen or realize what a real sword is like. I was not surprised that many of your modern 'made in China' swords did well. Granted many are flat diamond geometry but overall they use good monosteel with very good heat treatment. I suspect that many of the 'different companies' offering swords may be using the same blade makers, further up the supply chain!!  |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 23, 2012 8:03:56 GMT
Yes you are right, most of the "Made in China" swords here in the video were in high carbon steel and they really do stand up well, but only sometimes the problem is the construction isn't build for cutting (heavy), such as the tang and no pegs in the tang, etc,. These are small things they can really do to make the sword a true cutter, but too bad they did not. I love my Qing broadsword after my own sharpening job though, the sharpness is even better than CS! haha!
I was surprised the Hero sword can't stab into the case though, but after double checking, it is a rat tail inside, too bad, really big difference! Even a stiff blade doesn't mean it can go in! Rat tail sucks, but glade it didn't break!
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Post by ineffableone on Nov 23, 2012 8:35:30 GMT
There is a big difference between cutting and stabbing.
Not all swords excel at both tasks, in fact most specialize in one or the other.
While not defending overly flexible swords, I have to say this test is not proof of them not being good cutting swords, just they are not armor piercing swords, which they were never meant to be anyways. They are more like the Euro raper meant for elite citizens to duel with rather than for combat in armored warfare.
Here is an example of a still flexible sword that still cuts, in fact is designed to cut.
You can see how much it flexes in the cut, but this actually does not effect the cutting ability. Now this is not a whippy wushu blade, but a real cutting jian meant to be used. It is however still a decently flexible sword and so an example that a flexible sword does not mean you can't cut with it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 11:17:17 GMT
ineff, that video might give the wrong impression if you don't know the nature of the sword being used. The Hanwei Rodell Cutting Jian is actually extremely stiff, I have one, and it's a decent weight too. The video shows how a seeminly rigid blade flexes during a cut. Guess there's no way of knowing that beforehand. Katanas flex like that too during cuts, it's not what you'd expect from stiff blades!
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 23, 2012 14:37:51 GMT
I think the person above me explained it well already. If you handled a cutting jian in the video, you may know that it is a STIFF blade. If some of the blades like a CS Gim sword was used in the same way, it will flex too. But then, the sword don't even flex if you push it on the ground. That's how it is. They only flex upon big impact too. So.. these are NOT the semi-flex swords I am referring to.
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Post by Gundoggy on Nov 23, 2012 15:47:09 GMT
Please Note the term 'flexible' in a historical sense is referring to an angular deflection of the blade by about 5 to 10 degrees. Most antiques are in this range. The profile of the blade also affects this, understandably, the thinner wide blades of late Qing blades were in the higher range of flexibility. Another way of seeing this quality is to hold the handle and strike the pommel laterally with your other hand.
Thin SLO of today will have a wobbly large amplitude of vibration. The historically 'flexible' swords will vibrate in what is best described as a fine hum (like a tuning fork).
Also one must realize that poorly made SLO were prevalent in the Late 19th century, early 20th century as well. By this time the ascendancy of the firearm had rung the death knell for properly made swords and more importantly, the preservation of practical technique and usage of fighting techniques with the sword. I owned one antique late Qing Gim that was more flexible than usual.. almost 20 degrees of deflection on gentle pressure. Also despite san mai construction, the steel on the edges were very soft, the nicks on the blade looked like gashes in the steel, instead of the small 'broken glass' appearance of nicks on hardened steel surfaces. The balance on the 'SLO' antique also did not have the liveliness one associated with a well constructed sword.
At that time, Gim were also used as symbols to be hung on the wall of a scholar, such men often did not need or want a well constructed sword designed for fighting.
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Post by Gundoggy on Nov 23, 2012 16:00:14 GMT
Mr. Mak also mentioned a very important point regarding hilt construction. You need a beefy tang...at least 1/3 of the blade width, that is wide to the end of the tang with just a small 'nipple' that would protrude through the pommel and was peened. Modern blades of course have threaded tips on the tang. The use of pegs was historical. It's use in modern hilts is a method to ensure stronger hilts relatively quickly and cheaply. You don't need pegs if you have a carefully handfitted wooden handle that was then mated with good fittings and peened. This is expensive and time consuming!! One also has to consider what kind of wood they are using in China, specifically how old and aged it is. In Canada's weather extreme the dry winter air vs. wetter summer air can cause very serious shifts in humidity and shrinking/swelling of wood. Even with scabbards made by an expert by Philip Tom who uses specially dried woods, I notice they get tight in winter and less tight in summer. With the more affordable swords from China, one typically sees cracks due to the weather extremes in Canada. People in the US with less extreme weather shifts may not see so much variation. Live in a desert and you may notice similar phenomenon.
Another expedient modern technique is to pour epoxy into a less than perfectly fitted handle, this works too! Epoxy CAN be removed with heat as well if you ever want to change a handle. Realistically though, the cost of having an expert make a new handle exceeds the cost of many of the decent and well constructed modern swords, if you break it just buy a new one!
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 23, 2012 16:27:18 GMT
This is the Cold Moon Sword's Tang, extremely nice for the price of the sword, about $145 USD. Not bad! It stabbed into the computer as well, haha! I love this beast, it's about 3.5lb in hand and really do feel a big good sword! Attachments:
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Post by ineffableone on Nov 23, 2012 16:41:15 GMT
I have a Rodell cutting jian too. While it is stiffer than a whippy wushu jian it is flexible, I can get mine to flex quiet easily.
I think however my point was missed. Fexibility will seriously decrease the thrusting piercing ability of a sword due to the nature of a flexible sword wanting to flex when thrust into an object. This does not however negate it's ability to cut. I am not defending the whippy whushu blades and agree they are not propper functional swords. I am just pointing out that this test of piecing a computer case with a downward thrust is not proof of a flexible swords inability to cut. This test has noting to do with cutting ability. It is only a test of thrust and piercing ability.
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Post by Daishikaze on Nov 23, 2012 16:41:46 GMT
ooh, the shoulders are squared off, Isn't that bad for the sword? Shouldn't the shoulders curve into the Tang?
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 23, 2012 16:45:24 GMT
I do agree there. It's the whole point of my test though, and so flexi swords can't be used in battlefield for sure because of this reason. That's why all flex swords are civil defense use only. Another reason why I should not get the cutting sword because it totally don't fit my taste now, argh...  |
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Post by ineffableone on Nov 23, 2012 18:31:38 GMT
You find you need a sword that can pierce light armor these days? I have yet to find a need to pierce armor with my swords  I have heard, and I do not know if this is historically accurate, but that the flexible jian (again not wushu flex but more Rodell jian flex) while it did not pierce armor, would flex and slide upon armor finding the gaps and slide into them. In general you don't even want a sword for fighting against armor, it is due to heavy use of armor that hammers and axes and other impact weapons were developed in the Euro arms race. When one goes up against an armored opponent the least useful weapon is a cutting weapon. I know Asian armor styles were different, but still it is very much the same issue. I would prefer a blunt impact weapon against an armored opponent rather that most any sword. You don't use a knife to get the food in a crab, you have to crack the shell with a hammer. |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 23, 2012 18:57:59 GMT
Maybe I phrased it wrong, I mean I want a sword that is stiff and sturdy while having good weight because I like those type of swords for my training and I LOVE weighted swords a lot. I never use a sword (I don't think you will too!) for any self-defense nowadays anyway. It's for the training purpose. Power training with swords is very fun and I don't like things that go flex around much. Doesn't give me that kind of confidence at all. So it's a personal preference kinda thing maybe.
I do have semi-flex weapons but really, I prefer the solid sturdy blade more.
Sliding the blade into the gap is more like a silly fantasy to me, unless someone can proof it is going to work in a real lief situation, I doubt it is even possible or practical to think it will work. Yeah, maybe 1/1000 chance? Not really believe that can happen in a real fight.
By the way, you might not know me well but I weld a pair of 15.6lb (each) iron hard whip for my training. This 2lb 8oz is kinda too light already.
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Post by ineffableone on Nov 23, 2012 19:19:07 GMT
I was just more joking and teasing about not needing to pierce armor, I think most of us sword enthusiasts like to get sword that can act functionally in combat even if we will never use them in combat. I have drawn a katana twice in defense of my home, and thankfully both times the sight of me holding a sword freaked out the people and I did not need to use it, though I was prepared to do so.
As for the sliding into gaps, I can see the theory being plausible, but as I said I don't know how accurate it was historically due to the jian not typically being a war combat weapon except in the much earlier phase of it when it was much thicker and beefie and had no flex at all really. In most Chinese war where there was armor used there were mostly ridged blades not flexible, the flexible blades came more during peace time era and were considered a gentleman's weapon and would not have gone up against armor.
If you like the double edge of jian but not the flex most have, since most will have some flex it is part of the general design concept of the later jian styles, you might look at the Japanese Ken, which tend to be more ridged blade with no taper so they do not flex like a jian would. There are a few companies that sell Ken Huawei is one I know regularly carries them.
Very cool about the iron whip, I have always liked those but never took them up.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 23, 2012 22:14:41 GMT
Hahaha.. Well I think nobody is crazy enough to think they can rob a place with a Kill Bill around! I had encounter burglars too but I was more prepared and armed than just ONE blade on me though, hahaha! I was prepared for hunting!!!! LOL! I can't imagine what can happen if the silly guys took your katana as a wallhanger and come at you... then... what can happen?!
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Post by Rafael on Nov 24, 2012 17:33:29 GMT
Cool video. Who is the manufacturer of that Qing Dao?
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 24, 2012 19:10:53 GMT
Dragonwell I think. but don't know which guy.
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Post by Sir Tre on Nov 27, 2012 19:59:35 GMT
nowadays there are common references to wushu blade/ tai chi sword... and actual jian/ gim. to me this is a good reference, but too many vendors wont let us know which one/ or dont know themselves. a wushu blade is flexy/ whippy. a jian has proper flex/ rigidity comparison. what sux is that modern convenience has let the industry go to hell. a practitioner nowadays only wants a sword for exercise or competition, but if the held a real sword their wrist would hurt since they are not used to the weight/ balance.
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