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Post by kaz on Nov 20, 2012 23:19:42 GMT
Hi, I am not a sword practitioner yet and Im still a noob concerning sword. I was wondering the importance of a guard on a sword. In a practical point of view. Meaning in a fight sword against sword, spear, axe, etc. Im asking this because I did some extensive research on what type of sword will I get, and the presence of a guard vary from one to another. Here are some of the swords I gave a lot of toughts that have and does not have guards. For exemple the swords with no to almost no guards : Gladius, vicking sword, katana Compare to the swords with guards: europeen medieval swords, renaissance swords and cutlass.
I see there's a lot of people that prefer sword without guard as much as there is that prefer swords with guard. Regardless of the training you have with a certain type of sword, would you be more confident to go battle with a sword with a guard or it don't really matter to you. Personally, I saw on youtube some guys recreating fights with viking swords. They were wearing protection to the hands. It must be for a good reason no? Doesn't that show the superiority of a sword with a guard?
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Nov 21, 2012 0:23:59 GMT
When you block the opponents sword his blade is moving towards you, without a guard of some sort you will otherwise lose your fingers.
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Post by kasim18 on Nov 21, 2012 0:49:56 GMT
it all depends on the sword and the style. European blades with wider guards were used in a style where that was used often to block another blade, whereas a katana guard 'tsuba' is just meant to stop you from your fingers slipping on to your own blade, because that would really suck. and the gladius has minimal protection because the Romans quite frankly could not be bothered with learning a more complicated style that would make use of more protection. hope this helps
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Post by Tendrax on Nov 21, 2012 2:50:16 GMT
Shouldn't really be hard blocking with a viking sword either. You'd use the sword to parry if you had to but ideally you'd parry with the shield.
It comes down to the specific usage of the sword when it was designed. You fight differently with a rapier than you do with a viking sword, gladius, katana, etc. They were all designed around specific fighting styles and they're all drastically different.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that most practitioners today are more aggressive and less cautious then the people through out history that were actually fighting for their lives. I imagine that would lead to more whacks on hands and less strait out killing blows than there were back in the day. If that makes any sense.
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Post by Svadilfari on Nov 21, 2012 3:06:02 GMT
Apart from those who are "experts" in various forms of sword combat..most of today's re-enactors probably wouldn't last 60 seconds in a *real* combat situation where genuine killing blows were being struck. So..gauntlets today are used for safety reasons because of relatively 'clumsy' blows. And as others have said..guards serve two main functions..to prevent the user's hand from slipping onto the blade..and to prevent oppenants blade from hitting user's fingers. Even though blades shouldn't contact edge to edge..there's still the risk.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Nov 21, 2012 3:32:29 GMT
Actually back in the days a maiming or crippling blow was far more effective. More people died from blood-loss, shock or sepsis than the actual weapons themselves. Also its harder to concentrate when your buddy is screaming next to you trying to hold in his guts in with his hands. Additionally wounded place more of a strain on an opposing force than dead.
Guard style is pretty dependent on what weapon and weapon technique you are using or are more comfortable with. Modern fighting is much more formalized and frowns on many of the "dirty" yet effective tactics one would use when fighting for their life. I know from experience, I have had issues with a few SCA and reenactment groups about the tactics and blows I use. Intellectually I can understand why, but a do whatever you have to mentality takes over me when I spar. Not saying I am right, but it is probably more representative of what you would have actually seen.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Nov 21, 2012 3:56:29 GMT
To be honest I'v used both, fought with both and done some experiments that people have called crazy that usualy resulted in hand injury.
Definatly depends on how you use or plan on using the sword, best example i can think of is the differance between a shasqua(or othe variant of spelling) and any other saber with a guard. Same general blade typology but specific hilts and tecniques.
As for the role a guard plays, I look no further than my hands. Guards work, but they do have their short commings, thats why they evolved.
If you have any specific questions about a guard style, reply with it, others and myself would gladly shed some light on it's use for you I'm shure.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 4:55:30 GMT
Practical importance of a guard in a sword --> Practical importance of fingers! :lol:
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avery
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Post by avery on Nov 21, 2012 5:33:18 GMT
I will add to this in order say; one of the main reasons of the evolving guards in euro swords was because they were often used in strikes. To carry what 14th said further, a long quillion will do a good bit of damage to an oponnent when done properly. There is a common, albeit misguided belief, that the katana never evolved because it reached the pinnacle of blade evolution and there was no need to create larger tsuba. This is simply not true, as any enthusiast will tell you. The katana under went several evolutions, but the tsuba, or guard if you will, never really changed much since it wasn't utilized often. Main reason being, the tusba was there to keep your hand from slipping up to the blade. It served little more purpose than that. One the other hand, European martial arts incorperated many different strikes with the blade, guard, pommel and grip. There are surviving manuscripts showing techniques of grabbing an opponets blade in order to deliver a deadly strike with cross guard. Italian and German longsword both teach these to some extent. Added to that the effect of a "scent stopper", which is a pommel designed to deliver a blow to an opponents nose/face and aided by the cross guard. The cross guard acts as a block and the pommel delivers the blow. My advice(unwanted as it may be, lol) is to decide on what style you'd like to persue and choose your sword accordingly. Don't just pick up a sword and say "I want to learn how to fight with this". Some people can understand a type X and have no understanding of a shobu katana. Others, vice versa. Pick a style that feels right for you and peruse it; but remember in the high middle ages, every part of a western sword was and is deadly.
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Post by Lobster Hunter on Nov 21, 2012 7:47:58 GMT
One reason why some of the older types of swords (gladius, viking, etc.) have small guards could be that the warrior who used them relied more heavily on the shield for defense. This would place the one handed sword in a more purely offensive role, making the longer guards not necessary.
As arms, armor and tactics evolved, especially with the advent of plate armor and swords with longer hilts that were as useful in defense as well as offense, the more prominent cross guards became the norm. As for why the katana never evolved a bigger guard? Beats me.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 21, 2012 8:23:42 GMT
Want to protect your fingers better? Knuckle-bow or basket will do that. Also makes for a good striking weapon. Is there a downside? Yes. A basket is heavy, and makes it harder to wear the sword. But if your sword is your main weapon, and you don't wear a gauntlet, a basket might be worth the disadvantages. If not, perhaps a knuckle-bow. It won't protect as awell as a basket, but it's lighter and less inconvenient.
What about long quillons? They'll protect the hand as well as guards like a Japanese tsuba, if not somewhat better. But it won't be hugely better - a small guard is enough to stop something sliding down the blade onto your hand, and long quillons don't protect against direct hits onto the knuckles. They will make it harder for an opposing weapon to disengage and come around your hilt to hit you. With long quillons, it's got to go all the way around the quillon.
Like baskets, long quillons don't come without cost. They make the sword harder to wear, can potentially catch on clothing or equipment when drawing the sword or wielding it, and can be used as handles or levers by an opponent.
If your sword is very much a secondary weapon, or you wear it everywhere, then the improved protection might not be worth the inconvenience.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 8:38:23 GMT
If its something like a rapier, then the guard is very important, think of a swept-hilt rapierfor example.
As already indicated, Euro swords use the guards as part of the fighting system for hooking, striking, etc, on Japanese swords it is there only for your fingers...
Depend on the sword, at the least its always to stop your fingers sliding off the hilt onto the blade, especially when thrusting, at best it;s an intricate and specialised part of a combat tool around which the fighting art is dependent on. It's too general a question, so you'll only get general answres. If you're thinking of a particular type of sword, best to let everyone know what it is.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Nov 21, 2012 10:48:35 GMT
As has already been alluded to, talking about swords covers an expanse of historical time and world cultures. Weapons evolved with practice. Swords started in simple forms and grew in stature as metalurgy and forging techniques advanced.
Statistics on combat wounds is something that didn't come along until the 19th Century, however, the science and trends appply across the board. The incidence of hand and arm injuries in close combat far outweigh other reported wounds. Makes sense as the arms are holding weapons and presented in front of the body. Weapon designs were slow to evolve. Defensive improvements in body armor took precedence; until the gun came along and caused armor to be abandoned as superfluous.
At that point, in the late 15th Century is where you begin to see guards evolve to provide hand protection.
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Post by kaz on Nov 22, 2012 1:57:45 GMT
Thank you everyone for all the information. Very interesting. Couple of times it has been mention that a guard make a sword heavier. Does that mean the sword is slower to handle or just simply heavier to carry around?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 22, 2012 4:32:36 GMT
The guard is close to the hand, so it doesn't affect the handling of the sword very much. Weight far away from the hand affects the handling a lot more (so thickness and width near the tip of the blade matters). But the weight of the guard will still affect the handling. Even fairly minimal guards like a Japanese tsuba will affect the handling enough so that the sword can be "tuned" by choice of tsuba.
A basket hilt, just the hilt, can add about 500g or about 1lb to the overall weight of a sword. That won't make it that much harder to rotate the sword, but it will make it harder to move the whole thing around. And it will make it harder to carry around all day.
For ease of carry, the bulkiness of a basket hilt probably matters more than the weight.
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Post by kaz on Nov 25, 2012 22:55:23 GMT
thanks
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Post by Honto on Nov 26, 2012 0:39:18 GMT
As noted, in the evolution of European (Western) edged weapons and fighting styles, the sword, including the guard, was increasingly used as an integral part of defense and blocking the opponents blade. Whole schools were developed in the use of different guards and techniques. Eastern styles seem to have developed in parallel with famous hand-to-hand fighting techniques, where the sword was mainly offensive, and defense consisted of sheer speed or agility, with just the rudiments of parrying. I've read of very little describing feints or deceptions with the blade in fighting techniques with the katana, where in Renaissance Europe, voluminous texts were written describing the science of defending with the blade (which you are holding, hence the need for a guard), parry and thrust, with smallsword or rapier.
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