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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 21, 2012 0:19:25 GMT
hahaha.. well sharpening a GIM isn't that bad, just get a whetstone and do it, you might be having some terrible scratches and marks at first and you will panic, don't worry, you can ALWAYS use sandpaper to polish the blade at last to fix up everything you messed up. Just like my Han Jian I got (cheaper quality), I used stones to start getting the edge polish to a cutting edge, then sandpaper to polish the whole thing and it is like a mirror now, same like the GIM sword! I even did it with my jade lion too (the sandpaper part). The only thing is to know not to use rough sandpaper, just use wet sandpaper and work your way up to like 2000 or 3000 grit and you will get a decent finish after that. The last step is using the polishing paste which make it mirror like. Watch your hand though! Sharp blade is VERY scary! If I am you, I won't even send my GIM to CS because it takes forever to get it BACK! No way! hahaha! same here, we don't want to live without our blades! For Taoism, please contact me by e-mail : celestialmastermak@chiinnature.com! Thanks! |
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Post by Gundoggy on Nov 21, 2012 0:25:40 GMT
Nicks were often polished out resulting in a 'scalloped' edge as you had to polish out the entire nick. Small nicks concentrate force and can result in stress fractures in the blade if not removed. Many antique swords have 'wavy' edges due to nick repair. Large nicks sometimes could not be polished out without significantly affecting the blade profile.
Modern replicas do not impress me with their inaccurate fittings and inaccurate blade geometry. For the price of a few modern replicas you could get a blade with proper blade geometry...I'd order it from Jin shi, then send it to Philip Tom who can help you source historically accurate fittings and then create a properly fitting handle. He will also peen the tang to the handle as well.
I too went through buying many poor swords...Kris Cutlery, Hanwei Tai chi sword, Hunuo...carp and royal peony, Rodell Cutting jian. For that price of all the sub par swords you could get an antique or get Philip Tom to build you a nice one using a Jin shi blade with clamshell geometry.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 21, 2012 0:48:09 GMT
Well yes of course you can use money to buy anything, but then I think a lot of people just want to go to a place, click "add to cart" and get the sword in a few days or a week, that's all. Right? so if everybody say "let's go custom" then this forum will not be a place for normal swords lover to go. First, money is a problem for people sometimes and custom is costy. Second is that some people really want a blade asap and custom will take a long time to do too.
So yeah, for serious sword lover who wanna get a blade that can allow you to fight in modern warfare 4 or 5, sure, go custom. But now the thing is - if you just want a backyard cutter, I don't think these modern productions are THAT bad though.. um...
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Post by Gundoggy on Nov 21, 2012 0:52:29 GMT
It depends. I have one antique Dao with intact scabbard that had green rayskin on it. None of my other antiques had scabbards. According to Philip Tom, they were covered in leather, rayskin, or just lacquered hard wood. Philip did make a couple of scabbards for me where he used goatskin.
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Post by Gundoggy on Nov 21, 2012 0:56:55 GMT
For forms practice and test cutting the flat diamond profile is just fine!! The Rodell Jian is very nicely balanced, Hunuo's were relatively balanced and good weight. You have by now noted that many of the forges in China use similar fittings and blades  Since you live in Toronto I would recommend you attend one of Scott Rodell's seminars on Chinese Swordsmanship. If I recall he has a local club there hosting him annually. It's an eye opening experience. |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 21, 2012 0:59:02 GMT
Cool~ thanks for the info
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 1:30:59 GMT
Ok, read the link, seen it before - best to let people know what you stated there, to quote your conclusion: " Overall these experiments give a glimpse of the reality of fighting with swords, even with techniques emphasizing avoidance of edge/edge contact, it will still occur. Also it also shows swords are NOT indestructible and polishing out nicks and chips were a part of weapon maintenance. For my own needs I'm going to focus on blades with a beefy clamshell even though it will decrease soft target cutting performance. Weapon toughness is more important." So, you only tested edges with parrying on the flat... That's hardly a comprehensive test. Being familiar with that forum you've probably seen Scott Rodell's "Test Cutting Critereia" - forum.grtc.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=191You've probably seen the list of reviews he's done and seen which swords fail. It's more than just convex/clamshell blades, that's a gross oversimplification, and telling people to hold their breath until an unproven vendor releases a currently non-existent blade is proposterous. Hint of bias perhaps? Best to declare any company connections & affiliations/conflict of interest before you go any further. SBG has a policy of disclosure to ensure that reviews and such are as unbiased as possible. Would like to see some JinShi blades in that test list on the Great River Taoist Center Forums, get Scott to put them through the paces to see how well they compare to the other blades he's tested... The Zheng Wu blades get tested there and don't compare too well to the Huanuo ones of the Hanwei Rodell Jian, so what makes you think the JinShi blades would cut it, pardon the pun? Till I see a video of the JinShi blade doing the same thing as the others tested, it would be fair for you to state that what you're promoting is opinion based on a blade profile/geometry preferences, and not on evidence-based testing. Incidentally, I don't own any Huanuo jian, but the liuyedao has a very conves edge. The issue here is not just the edge profile, that's secondary, the real question is, how sound is the rest of the sword, can it withstand that level of shock/impact that would occur in battle, and will it still maintain its edge? What;s the point if you have a pristine edge when the rest of the sword breaks and cant be used? Your own personal criteria would support the Cold Steel marketing strategy they use on their Japanese and western blades, they do it better than anyone else, they use intentionally overbuilt, heavy blades. It doesn't take any real science to conclude that a convex or appleseed bevel is stronger than a flat one - the more obtuse an angle, the stronger the edge will be, that's how they design machete edges, and that's why Cold Steel overbuild their blades, to cope with hard edge impacts - without regard for handling. Also, if you genuinely believe Scott Rodell got the design of the Cutting Jian wrong (considering he's handled thousands of antiques and owns plenty too, and is a master in Chinese swordsmanship), if in your opinion that that the blade he designed is somehow 'weak' because it is not convex enough in your mind, since you're a member of his forum, perhaps you might want to tell him that out of concern and personal integrity, you didn't state that anywhere on the test discussion of Scott's forum for some reason??? :? I'm not having a go at you, I'm just asking for a bit more of a balanced perspective and some evidence to support your claims, that would be appreciated, thanks  |
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Post by Turok on Nov 21, 2012 8:42:24 GMT
You bring some very good points Gundoggy and Blackthorn. Paul Southren has already did a review on Jinshi's custom Han Jian. www.sword-buyers-guide.com/ancient-chinese-swords.html In that review he took several good wacks at a STEEL POLE and there was only slight damage to the edge. :idea: However, isn't it unfair to compare a $500 customized sword to a SUB-$300 production sword. Now the following is just my opinion and I am no way an expert but I think when Scott Rodell designed his jian, his main goal was to make a sub-$300, production sword that would suit the needs for many different people. This includes the backyard cutter, the collector, the traditionalists, and martial artists from many different backgrounds. Now naturally, he had to compromise some parts. If he created a true, blue clamshell pattern on his jian, it would probably have a difficult time cutting through soft targets like plactic bottles, etc. If he created a flat-diamond pattern, it would be hard for it to cut tough targets. He also made the handle longer to suit martial artists that require a larger sword like Bagua. I'm sort of short,only 5' 7", but I can still wield it with ease with one hand (maybe I'm used to it cuz I like to bowl :lol: ). I think its well balanced and it doesn't feel like a club like many of the Cold Steel katanas even though it is MUCH longer than a samurai sword. I think the Rodell jian is a great, versatile sword and a good balance for many different roles imho. It is a very fine weapon and as far as I know, CMA has never had a sword that can almost be universally used by people from different schools. Many times, it would be swords designed and specialized for one particular group in mind like the Adam Hsu jians and the Hanwei Shaolin series. To sum it up in the words of good 'ol Obi-Wan "an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age." :ugeek: |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 10:24:40 GMT
Good points Turok! I reckon you're right there. It's also not just an unmatched comparison in terms of price, but type of sword - the Han jian is obviously a from the Han dynasty which ended around 220AD, whereas the Rodell Cutting Jian is a design from the Qing dynasty 1644 AD - 1912 AD, nearly 1,500 years later! I wouldn't expect them to behave the same. Hanwei sure does have a lot of jians which would be great for taiji form practice, looks like that's their primary focus in the Chinese sword market. |
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Post by Rafael on Nov 21, 2012 11:46:24 GMT
About how much does ustimization from Philip Tom cost. Accuracy is my crucial, but a guesstimating to the nearest 100$ would be cool. does the time required for him to do that vary a lot or is the required time fairly standard? If so, about how long does it usually take?
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 21, 2012 11:56:23 GMT
I saw that before but is there a video showing the test? I would love to see it!
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 21, 2012 12:02:39 GMT
This phrase kinda translate to "Hanwei sure does have a lot of jians which would be great for "only gentle usage without any impact and not hitting a single object but air", looks like that's their primary focus in the Chinese sword market.
Why don't people just buy some SLO instead then, it's not going to break anyway. Sigh... I think it's more like Hanwei is aiming for wallhangers or decoration pieces that cost like a functional jian instead if you look at their swords around the $300-$500 range. I don't doubt their belle dao can be a cutter but for that kind of price.. yeah, sure.
Most Tai Chi guys nowadays just buy a dragonwell semi-flex sword and call that good, most of the "norm" in China are going for SLO in tin foil blades and others will go for semi-flex blades, these all cost under $50 for a sword. That's all. Nobody spend over that budget for a sword much. Hanwei is surely NOT getting the norm market for taichi if they are going for $300 and up range. So... well... I think your prediction is wrong based on what I see. I had learn in beijing, xian, HK and Toronto, none of the schools have swords like Hanwei, Cold Steel and stuff like that, even the masters. They all go for dragonwell's sub $50 series to be their GOOD STUFF and the normal class is all tin foil SLO. Oh well. What a world. Oh and what's worse is in HK, the taichi society are so into those extendable swords too, that's another funny thing.. hahaha.. extendable swords are not like ASP batons.. these cannot be used as impact weapons!!! :mrgreen:
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 12:49:32 GMT
Come to think of it, you're right, the taiji classes all use cheap bendy tinfoil wushu jian for safety, the Hanwei ones are light cutters, they are sharp, so they don't use them in classes. I can see the appeal of the blunt ones they sell, heavier than tinfoil wushu blades, better balance. But the sharp ones that can't really cut, not sure who they are marketing them to, collectors?
Ah, the extendable taiji swords, I almost forgot they existed! I've seen them in Chinese shops that sell a bit of everything, a bit like a general store. What are those things, is the idea that you can carry them anywhere? I dread to think how the handling would be on those!
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 21, 2012 13:09:33 GMT
Collectors? Well come on, we are all collectors on this forums or else we won't be here talking about swords instead of kungfu or something. Right? Do we really favor a collection piece (claimed) if it is not that functional? Unless you collect crappy swords, otherwise I can't think of a reason to collect it though. Artistic wise, they are not as good too. If you look at the Tang Sword from hanwei, the engravings on the sword blade is cheesy, even a cheap China or Taiwan made destiny sword (movie sword) for about $15 can look like that too, I don't see that can be some kind of art on the blade. The fittings are not with extremely crazy hollow out details too. Look at their belle dao, that is what art should be like, take a close look at the fittings, it's all like fancy furniture, it's like a sculpture! That's what art should be. Now you can really see that the hanwei's $300-$500 range isn't even for collectors. Dang.. what's in their mind?
The extendable swords used to be my FIRST sword in HK when I am 3-4 yrs old! hahaha! These are ultra-light swords with the handle feels like it's floating in the air, it feels very light on the handle and the tip is heavier. Some high quality ones are having a more solid steel handle for the weight and now the blade feels too light, dang! It doesn't make any sense but that's how it is. These swords never have a good balance and they never feels like a sword in hand. They do break and bend easily too. I had once bought 1 of them in beijing while I am in a camp and fought with other friends with it too, it bends and even BREAK! Seriously scary. With some light contact, they don't chip or anything, but they BEND!
I would say that instead of wasting money on these extendable SLO, you would be better off buying a semi-flex dragonwell "hard noodle" instead. At least it's more like a sword in 440 stainless steel. Yeah, it's not for cutting, but at least they don't bend permanently! haha!
What are these extendable for? Well my ex-grandfa used to love them because he can carry it down the park in HK without having to worry a cop will come at him or something, which is non-sense.. and also, they can go to dim sum afterward without going home to put the sword back after morning practice with their other friends in the park. Most people do this in HK.. they wake up about 7am and go to the park to gather up.. then about 8am they start to do taichi fist form together in a group, then end in 30mins.. then some will move on and do swords.. and then some will do partner practice for fun.. and then at 9am to 9:30am is chit chat time and then they split into groups to go dim sum together and hang out until 12 noon and they move on to their daily stuff like buying groceries, home for TV or playing with grand children.. and then about 4pm the kids come back from school and they have to be the baby sitter for the whole night, smacking kids on the head and tell them to do homework, cut the phone, you know.. those stuff. Then they sleep around 11pm after the night show on TV. That's a typical Chinese in HongKong - the taichi grannies club. I used to teach in a club like that in 1997 for a year and it is kinda fun to hang out with these grannies too. They chat a lot and you just don't and can't put your kungfu eyeglasses when you talk to them about taichi, it's just about moving the ass around and not for combat. So they have their fun and that's a granny taichi club style life! So if you tell them to bring a CS gim around, they will really freak out by the weight, then the size and the sharpness and nobody like it cuz you can't bring it to dim sum and groceries shopping afterward! Extendable is the way to go for these grannies! Dim sum is the main dish, not taichi!
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Post by Gundoggy on Nov 22, 2012 1:30:16 GMT
Any one who has conversed with or attended seminars with Scott Rodell will be familiar with this post. The use of light, improperly weapons in martial training can result in moving/holding the sword in a manner that can hurt you with a real weight sword, or encourage techniques that would not be effective in defense or attack. ( for example the cocked wrist 'Dian' that would really hurt you with real weight sword ). The lack of experience with controlled sparring or freeplay likewise compounds improper use of the sword and improperly interpretations of the sword forms. I trained in a different branch of Yang Tai Chi when I attended Laoshi Rodell's seminars but I still found them very useful. Regardless of style, or even nationality/cultures of sword use, there are certain realities than are universal due to the fact that all practitioners are human and that swords are bound by the laws of metallurgy and physics. I would strongly recommend attending one of his seminars, or similar groups focused on historical use...like HEMA or ARMA even if you don't practice that style so you can be exposed to these 'realities'. It will force you to re-examine your own art in new light and is a rich and rewarding experience. Please note, due to the decline of the sword as a weapon in real life MANY branches of CMA and especially tai chi have lost realistic knowledge of the correct usage of the sword. My own teacher taught a sword form that was missing many of the obvious parries and defensive movements that are very visible in the forms taught by Yang Cheng Fu and CMC. And the my Sifu's Sigung in my lineage who taught this form was only ONE generation from YCF (YCF's student!!!). You also have to be diplomatic about new knowledge. One does not go to his Sifu and say " Sifu, your edge parrying is an incorrect technique that is shunned in many cultures sword arts, not just Tai Chi...." even though it is! |
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Post by Turok on Nov 26, 2012 18:45:11 GMT
Hey MakChingYuen, it's right here! ... r_embedded All you gotta do is scroll down the review page! :lol: Mr. Paul Southren proves the Han Jian looks great and would probably take all kinds of abuse. However it is probably not good to compare a sword from that period to a contemporary jian. The Han Jian would have probably been used on horseback or on chariots before daos replaced them on battlefields. It was intended to cut through armor and was a truly battle-ready. The modern jian that most martial artist practice today has been used by scholars and for self-defense since the Qing. I guess its like comparing a gladius to a rapier (that's the best example I can think of right now). |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 26, 2012 18:59:14 GMT
Thanks for the link, I really lost the review page link I visited back then! haha! Nice video! I found another version of this han jian which have a brown/tan color grip wrap and a lighter color scabbard, probably something the same but different make or model? It is sold at WBW for about $200 range.
I really don't care much about what "most martial arts sect" practice because that is not what I use on my swords. I practice kungfu of my own lineage and so for each different blade, I have different techniques and forms to manipulate them the way they can be max utilize and get the vibe out of it. Just like people use a han jian to do tai chi sword is surely weird looking and feeling, but I don't feel that way because I will have a form that is custom fitted to the sword itself to make the form fit the sword instead of the other way around. That's one of the best thing I like about my own kungfu, it's the fun part, like as I said -- it's human who have to have skills to fit a weapon, not a weapon to fit your skills. In the battlefield, if you lost your weapon, you pickup anything and use it to fight, can't blame it being too heavy, too short, too long, too curved.. right? haha!
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. I have actually been debating whether I should send the sword back to ColdSteel since they offer a sharpening service. I don't want to be without the Gim for weeks though while I wait on them to send it back. I had also considered trying to sharpen the sword myself but I am reluctant since I don't have much experience with sharpening swords. Im worried about damaging it by doing a bad job. 
