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Post by skyfox on Nov 2, 2012 17:07:48 GMT
G'day I need an answer about arsenal made WWII Japanese NCO's swords. I have recently purchased what seemed like genuine NCO swords (with the metal grips) from two different sellers in the United States in the six to eight hundred dollar price range. What perplexes me is that one is sharp and the other isn't and its as though the blunt one never had an edge machined onto it in the first place. You would think that any non ceremonial combat sword would by made as sharp as possible so as to give the user the best ability to cut in mortal situations. I am thinking I have one genuine sword and one dud. They both certainly look real and I did a fair bit of research before buying the said swords. What I want to know is this. Did the Japanese ever make a wartime NCO sword that didn't have an edge? This is my first post after getting seriously addicted to Japanese swords about six months ago. I hope someone more experienced than me can answer the question as all avenues I have pursued either don't specify anything about edges, or individuals don't reply to my emailed questions. I hope one (or more)of you knowledgable sword nuts out can deliver the goods. Cheers JP
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Post by skyfox on Nov 3, 2012 3:53:01 GMT
Forgive my errors. It should read "would be made" and I missed putting "there" after nuts. I will be more diligent in the future. JP
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Post by skyfox on Nov 3, 2012 3:55:26 GMT
Damn it the "there" should be after out. Anyway can anyone enlighten me? JP
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Nov 3, 2012 4:51:33 GMT
Hello friend. Welcome to SBG.
The only explanation that I can think of that would allow the sword to retain its authenticity is if it's an Iaito blade. An Iaito is a training sword which can be sharp or blunt, but is mostly seen in blunt form.
Without seeing some pictures I don't think that anybody can deliver an accurate assessment, though. If you could post some, that would be great. Some good images of the handle(tsuka), overall blade shots, closer shots of the hamon and kissaki(tip), nakago(tang), mei(carved signature on the tang) and saya(scabbard) could clear things up for us.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Nov 3, 2012 7:40:51 GMT
Yes, pictures are a must in these circumstances
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Post by skyfox on Nov 3, 2012 12:45:49 GMT
Cool. As soon as I am home from sea in a week I shall arrange some detailed photos to help in the identification. Cheers JP
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Post by skyfox on Nov 27, 2012 0:39:03 GMT
Sorry it took a while . I am computer illiterate and had to find a reasonable camera to take the snaps. Here they are(I hope)for your learned war sword fans to check out. The one with the plain iron hilt and the most brown paint is sharp and i think is ridgydidge(Australian for real), the one with the fuller(bo-hi) that ends a few inches from the hilt is moderately sharp and I am wondering now if that is a fake as I have not seen a sword with its groove ending so far away from the hilt,also the detail in the casting or stamping in the hilt is almost non existent. The last sword has never had an edge and you could run it over your forearm without any fear of cutting yourself. I am suspect about this being an original as well. I also read somewhere that the factory serial numbers stamped on the blades were all orientated one way so that when holding the sword in your hand the numbers were upside down. Two of the swords numbers are orientated I think the proper way while one is not. Also one appears to not have any spacers around the hilt. I don't know if that is significant or not. I read that the Chinese are hopeless at making kissaki ? (tips) so there is a pic of the tips together for your perusal too. I hope the photos are clear enough to see properly. Any information or insight to these swords would be much appreciated, also any publications or useful links regarding NCO swords would be well received. Many thanks sword world. John
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2013 1:55:21 GMT
Hey Skyfox, I'm probably too late but here's my opinion on your swords.
the one at the top appears to be the real deal (the pics are a bit blurry making it uncertain) the one in the middle is guaranteed to be a genuine NCO sword the one at the bottom is easily recognizable as one of the early (worst made) Chinese repros
Here are some hints to decode these swords:
Top one: the good: the small mark on the blade next to the serial no looks like the Army Arsenal Kokura 1st Factory inspection mark "To". You are right about the numbers: they are oriented to the right direction (towards the edge) which is what it should be for the Tokyo-Kokura factory standard blades.
the bad: wrong shape of the fuller (it should be identical to the middle blade); the cherry blossom on the pommel cap looks very faint (a real one should be easier to spot); the weird discoloration of the ferrule and habaki. Normally it's a bad sign once it loses all its brown paint and is reduced to the aluminum look because it gets hard to prove its authenticity.
Middle one the fittings are exactly what an original should be: the brown color is present which is an excellent sign (repros never have painted handles because they can't duplicate the quality paint used which is very resistant). Accurate markings on handle and blade. Nuff said. One of these go for the 600$ and up btw.
Bottom one: almost everything is an indication: the cheaply made side stopper, the entire blade (length of fuller, numbers facing the wrong direction according to the arsenal stamps) the details on the handle which are just gross and very badly done. Clear indications of the early swords made in China some years ago.
The top one I'm guessing might be an actual real sword but better pics of the handle might be needed. I know the Chinese improved greatly some of their guntos to the extent it is becoming hard to spot a fake without seeing it in person. I really hopw these can help you or others with future finds. Cheers
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SanMarc
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,193
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Post by SanMarc on Jan 10, 2013 4:46:39 GMT
If you disassemble the Tuskas you would find some surprises, and not good....
The one with the Oval Tsuba is probably real, looks very similar to a NCO's Gunto that I had from the son of the solder who brought it back, mine was the real deal, the two others are fakes, one an early crappy one and the other better but still a fake.........
At least ya got one out of three.......
....SanMarc.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jan 11, 2013 14:14:31 GMT
Sorry for the late reply, I kinda remember answering this before but guess I didn't... I would agree with Pinotte and Marc that the middle one is genuine middle type 95. It has Nagoya stamp on fuchi and correct orientation of numbers for Nagoya arsenal. And the overall look of it is good, much higher than on the other two, to my eye small details on this sword seem correct. I would say the other 2 swords are Chinese made fakes. For a lot more info on NCO swords that I can give I'll guide you to this best online resource of gunto that I'm aware of. www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_070.htm
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Post by skyfox on Jan 14, 2013 0:35:03 GMT
Thanks folks. Much appreciated. I have acquired a few more over the last months and will post pics of the lot in the near future when my mate with the camera comes around. Once again thankyou and I hope your year is a good one. Cheers John
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