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Post by zentesukenVII on Oct 18, 2012 18:45:18 GMT
I've been having trouble finding hard facts on the laws here. So heres my situation and my questions:
I am 19. It is unlawful to purchase a handgun from a store such as Gander Mountain, Cabelas etc. unless I am 21 and have a clean record. However as far as I know private sales are legal to anyone over 18.
I have a walther PPK .380 willed to me from my grandfather who passed away. I am wondering if it is legal for me to open carry this firearm when I receive it? Do I need to get it registered under my name? If there is no law against it, what do I tell the cops when they stop me (assuming I am being lawful and doing nothing wrong). Also if I was to legally purchase a pistol from a private party, is there any law against me doing so, and open carrying at the age of 19?
Any info, links or advice would be helpful. I am also having trouble finding out whether or not it is legal to OC a buck knife in Milwaukee. You are not allowed to carry a blade over 3 inches in length, but does that only apply to pocket carry for everyday use?
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Oct 18, 2012 19:20:00 GMT
Thats a hard question to answer. Down here by me it varies by town, In one OC with guns and knives is allowed, in the next city over only blades, the next city no OC allowed.
Look at the State laws & the city, thats your best bet for an answer.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Oct 19, 2012 0:52:12 GMT
You had to know I was going to chime in on this topic... you just had to. Anyway here goes...
Living in Wisconsin and being an avid firearms lover I've gone into some extensive research on Wisconsin's laws regarding firearms (and other weapons), open carry, concealed carry and other areas involving firearms. I HAVE gone so far as to consult a lawyer who is intimately familiar with firearms laws and also consulted my county's DA. I have also spoken with a couple of judges and depending on their political orientation, personal beliefs and their interpretation of the law decisions made by judges can vary by quite a degree. Despite this don't take this post as legal advice since while the laws are written in one way your local police force, DA and judges can interpret them differently from what my local authorities might. It is HIGHLY advisable (and just plain smart) to contact and consult a lawyer who is very familiar and well versed in firearms laws as well as YOUR local DA. Don't consult the police - they aren't the final say in whether charges get pressed against you, your DA is. Now that I've made my disclaimer I'll share MY results and personal findings which may or may not be the same as in your area. I'll address your points in numeric order from first to last mentioned in your OP.
- Legal age of sales and possession of handguns: According to Federal law it is NOT illegal for a person age 18-20 to own and possess a handgun. However it IS illegal for an FFL holder (ie. gun store or other party licensed by the Federal government to do business involving the sales/service of firearms) to sell a handgun to anyone under the age of 21. Of course if you were to be at a gun show, a friend's house, family's house etc. and were either sold or given a firearm (transferred is the legal term) it is completely legal so long as you are legally able to own a firearm AND the firearm in itself is not contraband. That being the case you should be able to openly carry a handgun so long as you are legally able to do so (ie. not a felon, have arrests and convictions for violence etc.). However this CAN be subject to interpretation by your county DA. Check with that person/department before choosing to OC.
- Registration of a firearm in WI: The only time the firearm needs to be registered is when you are purchasing the firearm from an FFL holder. Aside from that any private transactions, willed property, given property etc. is exactly that - private - and does not need to be registered. Personally I would NOT register any firearm that is not purchased from an FFL.
- Open carry of your PPK: When you get the gun, if you are not prohibited from owning and possessing the gun, it will be legal for you to open carry although I personally would advise against it. I'll address this later in the post after I've addressed your other talking points.
- If and when the police stop you regarding your firearm I strongly suggest being polite and cooperating with the officers. Before you decide to open carry though make sure that you KNOW the law and how it will be interpreted in your jurisdiction. If the police officers are wrong in their interpretation politely advise them of the error and if they choose to arrest you anyway cooperate and seek legal representation. For the most part though you should't get into any trouble so long as you aren't carrying under age, threatening people or brandishing the weapon. I'll repeat though that you need to be polite and cooperative. Don't start talking about how its your right to do this and that etc. Just be polite and cooperative.
- Carrying of knives: In WI it is a commonly repeated fallacy (often spread by the more liberal media and like minded individuals) that the limit on blade length throughout the state is 3 inches. In fact the state of WI has NO size limit on the blade length or size. The only stipulation is that you cannot carry a knife concealed without a valid CCW license. That means that if you want to strap a 14" bladed bowie onto your hip and walk around in public you will not be in violation of state law. I walk around with a knife strapped to my chest that has a 9" blade whenever in the woods along with my revolver and/or 1911. The ONLY condition the state has is that it MUST NOT be concealed unless you have a valid CCW license. This is a state statute however and local ordinances may be more restrictive. This is why its best to consult your local DA. Local ordinances aside it is legal for anyone who is legally able to own and possess a knife to carry any size knife they want openly in public so long as they are not threatening someone or brandishing it. As for carrying in Milwaukee - I wasn't aware of a 3" limitation when I lived there but I CAN say that I HAVE seen people walking around with knives on them that were larger than that and the police didn't harass them. As for pocket carry ANY size knife that is concealed is considered carried illegally UNLESS you have a valid CCW license whether it has a 1" blade or a 10" blade. Of course if you can conceal a 10" bladed knife in your pocket then you've truly got some deep pockets!
Now about open carry and why I would suggest against it...
There are too many examples (some of which exist in WI) of people who were open carrying in an urban environment having their weapons taken from them and sometimes used against them. I prefer to NOT allow people to know I am armed because that means that I will be less likely to be the target of a robbery FOR my gun. I am reminded of the man in WI (Milwaukee actually) whose gun was taken from him while he was openly carrying then used to shoot him.
If you're going to carry carry concealed. If you're going to carry concealed carry do so with a valid CCW. Consider what you do carefully, be safe and stay lawful.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Oct 19, 2012 17:19:52 GMT
Yeah SamH I was almost just going to PM you about it but figured I'd get as many opinions as possible.
I am still unclear of knife laws. I'm always conceal carrying a flip open knife with a 3.5 inch blade. I use it for work mainly, but it is also there for defense. Of course I wouldn't tell a cop that. I'd rather OC my bowie than conceal carry my pocket knife, for one as far as I am understanding it is NOT illegal in any way as opposed to me carrying a small knife in my pocket. Odd.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Oct 19, 2012 19:05:00 GMT
So when are you going to be available to go shooting then?
PM sent.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Oct 20, 2012 0:59:23 GMT
As an aside the Walther PPK is a small firearm, if carried in a belt holster a flapping T-shirt can turn OC into CC, which will lose you a family heirloom.
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Post by alant on Dec 9, 2012 13:25:10 GMT
Good advice from Sam H A couple of things to add: - I suggest you take a CCW class, but look around for one that includes a lawyer/instructor qualified to go over the finer points of the law. Learning the law was the important part of the class for me. Many CCW courses don't do a good job. - Unless things are drastically different in WI there are places you cannot carry or can carry with restrictions. For example federal buildings that have been posted, including your local Post Office. These signs aren't always obvious. Then you have the federal law about schools (1000 feet). My state has special requirements about places with liquor licenses. Some states allow individual businesses to post their property as not allowing firearms/weapons. In my state the police have decided (nowhere in state law) that people cannot carry (open or concealed) in state office buildings within the capitol city. In my state it is ilegal to posses a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle . . unless you have a CCW permit. - As Sam suggests, open carry can be more trouble than CC. I live in an open carry state. It's legal for me to open carry a 9mm in a holster or even an AR slung over my shoulder into Walmart or a movie theater. There is, however, a not inconsiderable chance some concerned citizen will call 9-1-1 and report a "man with a gun" resulting in the police showing up. I'd rather that not happen. Here's an example of an agency explaining a law. After reading it can you tell if it is legal for you to drive on a public road within 1000 feet of a school with a firearm that is ready to use if you are not a LEO? Does a CCW permit allow you to do so? www.atf.gov/publications/downloa ... 5310-1.pdf
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Post by zentesukenVII on Dec 11, 2012 17:26:06 GMT
Those laws are terribly written. I will be calling my DA as soon as possible to talk to him about some of the laws here in Milwaukee. I am expecting to have to deal with the police eventually when i'm open carrying, I know how to talk to them. After a few words they usually can see that I'm not just some punk.
I have a question regarding them needing to see my ID. Lets say the situation is this:
I get out of my car to go for a walk at the lake. I crawl into my backseat, open my lockbox, load my gun and holster it in open carry fasion. I walk out of the parking lot and begin my walk. Lets say I'm wearing my usually hiking attire (camo pants and a green sweater).
A woman watches me from her car. She sees me load my gun etc. She calls the police and says there is a man with a gun in the park, he's wearing camo pants etc.
About 15 minutes into my walk a squad car pulls me over. This is what I would do:
While keeping both my hands at my sides and not making any sudden motions, especially towards my gun, I ask them if there is a problem. Maybe I'd want to pull my hands behind my back standing at ease. They respond with "Yeah we got a call of a man with a gun at the park. we wanted to know what you are doing here and why you are armed with a gun?"....I would first say that I do not consent to any searches or seizures, and I'd ask them what crime I am suspected of committing? If they said something like "Well you aren't breaking any laws, but we got a call and we want to know what's going on?" I'd respond with: "Well officer, I understand your concern and I'm sorry if I scared anyone, but I am of legal age to own and carry this firearm." The cop gets kinda frustrated. He tells me that he needs to see my gun to run the serial, and he also needs my ID.
This is where I am wondering what I should do. Do I have to comply to either of these requests? If I did, I would ask him how he would like me to handle transferring my firearm to him.
Now let's say he tells me it is a crime or something for me to be doing this, I would inform him that Delware V Prouse states that an individual cannot be stopped for the sole reason of carrying a firearm. This is the correct reference as far as I know. If someone could explain to me in detail Terry v Ohio, Delware v Prouse and US v Deberry I'd be thankful. just so I know for reference.
If he demanded a search of my person or vehicle I would respectfully refuse. I would ask him if he suspects me of committing a crime or being a felon, if he does not, I am legally free to go. I'd ask if I can have my gun back.
If the cop continued to persist I'd ask to see his supervisor. I feel like if I am being stopped because some woman was worried, but I am not actually committing a crime I legally should be allowed to be on my way. This is how that works is it not? I do not want to come off as a semprini to any LEO's, but I do want to make it clear that I am aware of the laws regarding the matter. But I am not going to OC until I do know every law back and fourth.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Dec 12, 2012 0:41:12 GMT
First off I think that you need to take a step back and really ask yourself your intentions for wanting to open carry. Please answer these questions, both to yourself and to me or others who might be wondering.
1. Why do you want to open carry?
2. What do you believe you'll achieve by openly carrying?
3. How do you believe that you will further any worthy cause by openly carrying?
4. Do you believe you'll be safe openly carrying a gun?
5. Do you believe that disrupting other people's days and causing alarm (while legal) is the right thing to do?
6. Do you have the necessary training and mindset to carry a gun either openly or concealed?
Personally I'd NEVER openly carry a firearm. That's just asking for trouble. In fact if you look at most of the videos on the web of people (almost all of them are 2nd Amendment advocates) these people really don't do much to further the cause they so vehemently try to support. Instead the majority of them come off as asses and jerks who are trying on purpose to stir up trouble and confrontations with law enforcement. Now I'm not saying that you're going to do that but that's not to say it won't happen.
You haven't got that much longer - wait till you're 21 and apply for your CCW. If you can legally own a handgun and you don't have any legal issues in your history pertaining to violence or tendencies toward violence etc. you WILL get your permit. At that point in time carry concealed and don't allow ANYONE to know you're carrying unless its ABSOLUTELY necessary.
Honestly I'm not saying this (what I'm about to say) to be mean but I'm just trying to steer you in the right direction and it seems to me like you need someone to say this to you so I'm going to say it.
It seems to me like you've got your head stuck around the idea of open carry and I'm not sure whether its because you've got some gung ho Rambo complex, just want to have the novelty of actually walking around with a loaded firearm or any other number of reasons you might have but seriously get your head out of your rear end and smell the crap. Carrying a gun isn't glorious, macho, or cool. It doesn't give you any more authority than you already had (which is pretty limited). It doesn't make you a hero nor does it give you the open license to become a hero. There is NOTHING fun, glorious, macho or heroic about carrying a gun, especially openly.
Carrying a gun is a responsibility and a serious one at that. You NEED to be cautious and aware of your surroundings. You must have absolute self control when you're armed. You must be a model citizen and of course you must do everything you can NOT to disrupt other people's lives. You also have to remember that having a gun doesn't give you the ability to enforce laws. It just gives you a tool to defend yourself or others from eminent danger. That's not to say that you can draw your gun and bolt across the street to defend a woman that's being beaten by her boyfriend or go running into a store guns blazing to stop a robbery. Those situations require that you stay at a distance and call 911. To do otherwise is foolish and illegal.
In any case buddy since you've been given good advice prior to your post and you've chosen to refuse to listen to it I'm not going to give you any advice regarding your actual questions. Frankly the scenario you presented is ludicrously easy to avoid by just NOT openly carrying. You're walking the wrong path and frankly as a responsible gun owner and CCW it not only irritates me but also greatly concerns me.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Dec 12, 2012 3:05:32 GMT
Thank for you efficient reply man. I'll try to keep the response organized.
1. I want to open carry, because I am 19 and I cannot concealed carry. When I am 21, I will be getting my CCW immediately.
2. I greatly hope I never have to achieve anything by doing so. I feel like carrying a firearm is much safer defense-wise, than carrying a edged weapon.
3. I really don't care about furthering a "cause" I simply want to be able to take advantage of the laws in my area to better defend myself and others. But if anything, I think people may see that, just because I'm carrying a gun doesn't mean I'm up to no good. I am nice guy, and I very easily get along with others wherever I go. I'm almost always am with my girlfriend and I'm very polite to other people. I don't think I'll have many problems in that regard.
4. No, I'd much rather conceal carry. But I don't think I am as safe as I could be at this point in time. I carry a blade to protect myself. I'd much rather half a .45 caliber.
5. I hope I don't disrupt anyone. I've talked to a lot LEO's about the matter, almost all of them are for it in Milwaukee. If I do and they confront me directly I'm sure I can convince them that I am no threat to them.
6. I have done a lot of mental training on the matter. I value human life very much, and I am very good in nervous situations, especially when talking to police officers. As far training goes, I will not be carrying until I have put at least 800 rounds down range. Hitting a by-stander is a big fear of mine, so I will be doing extensive draw/shoot drills.
I personally agree with you about those guys. I think walking around with an Ar-15 on your back is just stupid, especially since they are being dicks about a point they are trying to prove, and scaring the hell out of everyone. A handgun is one thing. An assault rifle looks a bit "scarier" and don't forget those evil tactical magazines that can hold 100 bullets and mow down crowds. In all seriousness though, I think advocating something by scaring people is just ignorant.
SamH, I think you have definitely got the wrong idea about my intentions/mindset about the matter. I've been mugged before, and I've been shot at. Both situations were completely out of my control to stop or prevent. 5 guys literally opened fire at me and my ex a few years ago for no reason from across a park. Those experiences scared me to death, humiliated me and taught me how important self reliance is. I have people who depend on me to do things for them nowadays. One of those dependencies is protection. I don't ever want something like that to happen again, and for me to be as helpless as I was, especially when another person is counting on me to protect them. I promise you my first considered option is to flee. I'd rather get out of there safely, than have to kill a man. I do not think carrying a gun is cool, in fact I very much wish I did not have any need to.
I think after seeing my keen interest in learning the proper laws regarding the matter, instead of just up and OCing, you should give me the benefit of the doubt. I've been doing a lot of research on the matter. I don't think I'm a vigilante or some macho guy. In fact a friend of mine has the "I'm a badass because I have a gun" mindset. He flaunts how cool it would be etc. This reminds me how stupid that kind of mindset is and how I need to approach this with great caution, and have a very appropriate attitude towards the matter. I am thankful he reminds me too. I hope to God he never gets his CCW.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Dec 12, 2012 4:26:55 GMT
You've clearly missed the points I was trying to make. Let me break it down for you:
1. Not only I but others have voiced that open carry can be more hazardous to you because of the fact that people KNOW you have a gun and those who would desire your gun could make a target out of you. This has happened before (on multiple occasions) and frankly I doubt you have the training to retain your gun in that situation. I know I'd have a hard time doing so if the attackers were determined enough and I've got hand to hand and weapons training you don't have.
2. By simply open carrying you're going to be disrupting people's lives. You've got every right to do as you wish regarding open carry but bear in mind that by living in a societal group/location such as a city you've given up some of those rights for the benefits of being in that group. One of those is the right to do as you please regardless of how others in the societal group may feel. That means that by open carrying (which is NOT the norm) you're going to start alarming people and the police WILL be called. While its not illegal it IS disrespectful and puts a bad light on gun owners.
3. You say you've done a lot of mental training on the matter but I'm pretty sure that you haven't done much in the way of actual training. Are you willing to put the money into actually training with the gun you intend to carry? Do you have any idea how much it costs to do that kind of training? I'd suggested getting an instructor to help you with technique, form and practical application (sounds a lot like a martial art doesn't it - well it should since it in itself IS a martial art). I doubt you've done that yet or have you? Carrying a gun isn't just strapping a gun and psyching yourself up to the task. Its lots of training and physical preparation to make sure that if and when you absolutely have to draw your gun you're not going to accidentally shoot someone's child, mother, father, brother etc. who was innocently in the wrong place at the wrong time. The mindset that a lot of casual backyard cutters take with swords is NOT the kind of mindset that I believe to be safe amongst gun owners and especially amongst those who would go out into public armed.
4. You say you've spoken with many law enforcement officers, Were that the case you'd realize that the majority of them DO NOT advocate open carry. I know of six cops in Milwaukee - one of them is a friend of mine that I still speak with from time to time. Four of them are street cops, one is a detective and the other has now retired and is now a dispatcher. When I was talking with them about open carry they ALL advised against it saying that would just stir up trouble and get me the wrong kind of attention. I listened to them and did not open carry. The other thing is if you HAD truly spoken to a lot of LEOs you'd also know by now how they would expect you to behave if confronted by any of them regarding a firearms issue. You wouldn't have to post the scenario here for answers from people who are NOT LEO.
5... wait no more numbers this is the final point.
Basically I understand the desire to wear a gun (although you actually haven't REALLY clarified WHY you want to wear a gun) but really you need to be realistic about this. Open carry is ONLY going to land you in trouble... the magnitude of the trouble will depend a lot on luck (or lack thereof) and your attitude when it happens. You're 19 going on 20 right? Wait a couple years and get your CCW. Its safer, more discreet (obviously) and just makes more sense. Besides maybe a bit of time will temper your eagerness and make you more respectful of the gun you're actually going to carry. Real life ain't no game of airsoft man. When someone gets shot they really get hurt and they really bleed. If they die from that they die for real...
So in short, chill out, get some training and wait a couple years then get your CCW and carry everywhere you legally can. Life will be a lot simpler for you then.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Dec 12, 2012 5:55:30 GMT
Sam, I will take your advise as far as open carry goes.
I think you totally missing my intentions though. As far as I can tell you seem to get the idea I am a run-of-the-mill teenager who wants to carry a gun because I think it's cool. It's simply not true man.
The LEO's all did say CCW is much more efficient and practical, however they all agreed that seeing as thats two years that I don't have a gun with me, they agreed that OC is my best bet, and knowledge of what to do in OC situations. I've asked them how they would like me to handle my firearm in a stop, and they've told me. Usually these conversations happened at work so I did not get to get into extensive detail with them, hence this post. I know a lot of people here are carriers of all types, who may have experience with this sort of thing. I'd rather get more opinions than only a few.
My desire to wear a gun? Why do you think man, why do YOU wear a gun? I want to have a means of defending myself or my girlfriend if some semprini comes and tries to steal our car. I want to be able to help, if some lunatic comes into a building with a semi-auto rifle in whatever way I can. Having a gun is a lot better than not having a gun in that situation. There has already been 2 mass shootings in WI this last year. Your reason for carry is not any better than mine, I don't care how much experience you have. I want to carry because I do not feel safe going to church on Sunday anymore.
Just because I have not put 100,000 rounds down range does not mean I do not know how to operate and respect my firearm in a safe manner. Just because I have played a sport which involves fake guns does not mean I do not understand the difference between play, and real combat. I am aware that I'm young, but I do not look at this as a game. If I did, I would not be doing legal research and mentally preparing for it. I get that this is a big deal. I can agree with you that I do need to take more time to prepare in many ways before I do start carrying a gun. But that's why I'm asking these questions now.
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Post by StevenJ on Dec 12, 2012 7:31:20 GMT
Sam you're lucky if you live in a state where you can open carry if you do. There is none in FL except while hunting and fishing. yeah 2nd amendment advocates those bad people at Gun owners of America and NRA are really hurting the movement who actively go out and exercise their right to bear arms. Believe me if FL allowed open carry i would. I would probably get a holster or modify my my holster with a leather strap release so it couldn't be yanked so easily which would help in a struggle in most cases. I certainly support people's rights to openly carry a rifle but most gun fights end in less than six shots anyway so i don't see a need for myself under most current situations. But hey you know what they say right? if you don't exercise a right you are going to loose if. If stupid sheep like public don't like it they can move to more anti gun friendly cultures and live in 1984 police states like England where they hound you over owning long knives now and petty theft has exploded. Maybe they would of enjoyed Nazi Germany too after all Hitler was a gun grabber as well. Maybe it's not the people who actively fight to keep and protect and inform but perhaps the cowards who are afraid of losing their rights who are the problem. I don't know just trying to state it in the nicest friendliest way possible. You let yourself become pushed around you will be. I pretty much carry CCW where ever I go that is legal and lawful. If open carry was legal I'd be packing my 4 inch GP 100 where ever I go scarred sheep or not. I carry no intention to brandish or threaten therefore I should have no reason to be suspect or harassed. That is it, period, end of story.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Dec 12, 2012 12:08:49 GMT
First off you have to admit that there is a certain part of you that DOES want to carry a gun because its cool. If I felt it were wise to open carry I'd be walking around with my Ruger Super Redhawk .44mag 9.5" barrel in stainless steel on my hip because its such a bad ass gun. Yeah I'd love to do that but its not practical nor is it smart to do that. Instead I keep a 1911 on me in an IWB holster beneath a shirt/sweatshirt etc. in a fashion that people DON'T know I have a gun.
I think you should think more about what they've said. I'd be willing to bet it was more along the lines of, "Well since you MUST carry a gun on you and since you can't legally ccw yet then OC is the best option you have for that. Be sure you really know how to handle situations that arise from that though."
Now as for MY reason for carrying a gun - its to defend my family and myself from bodily injury and/or death. A carjacking isn't reason enough for me to draw my gun. If it were just me in the car I'd simply get out, keeping my eyes on the bad guy, and let him/her/them have the car. They'd never know I had a gun on me. If my family were in the car I'd ask if they'd give me time to get my wife and kids out of the car. If they agreed to that I'd let them take the car. If not then I'd take action that would involve drawing and shooting. A car is not worth escalating the crime to violence and possibly getting killed over.
If someone walks into a building I happen to be in with a rifle the last thing I want to do is draw and start trading bullets with this guy. I'm going to get my friends and family and lie low till its either absolutely necessary to draw (ie he starts behaving like he's actually going to shoot people or is starting to shoot up the place) or just lie low till he's gone after having robbed the place. Trading fire with a rifleman is a good way to piss him off and not only get yourself dead but others too.
Just the scenarios you mentioned and your suggested actions you'd take screams to me that you're not ready to carry a gun. When I lived in Michigan (Detroit) I CCWed. I learned a lot there. When I came back to WI I hated the fact that I couldn't CCW. Now I can again. I had a lot of time to think about carrying and a lot of time to practice for when the time did arrive that I could CCW and if I HAD to draw my weapon. You need some time and training before you carry.
Steven - people haven't openly carried guns in towns and cities since the 1700's. Its one of the trade-offs for living in a city. If you want to be able to do what you want when you want to do it then go be a hermit out in the middle of a swamp or forest. Otherwise if you live in a city - you still have to do what is considered right and normal within that city even if what you're considering is legal but NOT right and normal.
In general you shouldn't OC - that draws too much attention to you, attention you really don't want to have. Its far better to ccw. IM (not so humble) O Idon't believe that OC has any place in society. Definitely CCW but NOT OC. Even in the "Wild West" people didn't OC their handguns or long arms inside towns and cities unless they were law enforcement.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Dec 12, 2012 22:20:16 GMT
I have a basic understanding of when pulling my gun out is absolutely necessary. Right now my carry gun would be a Ruger Blackhawk .357 with an 8 inch barrel in stainless steel. I'd rather carry something smaller, but it's what I have (My girlfriends dad just gave it to me as an early christmas present).
Of course I do find guns "cool". If I did not think so, I wouldn't own one. I don't think that having a gun on me makes me any cooler. I think it just makes me feel a bit safer.
The scenarios I described are generalizations. If some guy comes up to the window and says "gimme you car", i'm not just going to pull out my gun and open fire. The same if someone is brandished a rifle in a public place. I'm going to try and get away and call 911 first. If he began shooting at people, I would indeed engage him. I am learnign all the legal ramifications, and the things I should do after shooting someone, especially when there are innocent lives involved. These are things I want to have down before carrying.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Dec 13, 2012 8:32:45 GMT
A carjacking is considered a violent crime. Armed robbery is a violent crime. Some of us are unwilling to tolerate that and will do whatever is necessary to defend ourselves, our families, and our property. Armed or otherwise. You may feel differently, Sam, but don't preach from on high at those of us who don't.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Dec 13, 2012 18:28:39 GMT
I agree Taran. Regarding a mass shooting, if I was anywhere near that and I had a means of stopping it from happening, I would. You can call me foolish, you can call me a wannabe hero, but I cannot just sit and watch innocent lives be destroyed because some nut job can't deal with his problems. To me, there is nothing "Cool" about shooting a bad guy. It's just the right thing to do. Of course given certain circumstances I would act accordingly if I was with others or whatever, but all in all my goal would be to stop the guy and keep my self, my loved ones and anyone else who is subject to being shot, safe.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Dec 13, 2012 23:17:12 GMT
Unless you have some training that the rest of us haven't gotten I doubt you'd be able to draw a weapon that is holstered in time to shoot the bad guy before he shoots you since he's already got his gun drawn and pointed at you in the case of a carjacking.
As for armed robbery, if your safety or the safety of others isn't in jeopardy, then I'd say its not worth getting into a firefight - especially with a gunman who has a semi-auto rifle and you've only got a handgun. Again unless you're privy to training that the rest of us don't get you'd be in a situation where you're going to die and for what, perhaps a couple hundred dollars?
The real question is whether or not you feel its necessary to either shoot someone or get shot by someone or both over a car or over someone else's money. Personally I don't believe that its worth it. On the other hand if I saw a woman being raped in an alley I'd have no hesitation in drawing my gun and stopping the attack. Same goes for an aggravated attack or any other crime which is in process that would result in either bodily injury or death of the victim. However I won't get involved over a car or money. That's what insurance is for and frankly I'm not a hero and never claimed to be. My safety and the future of my family (since if I'm dead or worse incapacitated that puts my family in a bad place) is more important than my car or someone else's money.
If you want to engage go ahead and if you're close enough for me to drive to your funeral without a great amount of cost involved I'll come and tell everyone that you were the hero I never wished to be... of course that doesn't do you any good does it?
If I recall correctly you're in the military or maybe your wife is. I think the military has a saying that's prevalent regardless of which branch you're in regarding heros... and being dead.
As for me I'm not military - tried but because of some physical problems couldn't get in - and I'm not law enforcement. I have had some training in the use of handguns, rifles and shotguns for defense and tactical purposes. I've also put hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange up to this point in my life practicing what I've learned. I've also been shot, cut, stabbed and attacked. I've fought my way out of most of those situations and some of them have ended with me in the ER on a hospital bed while my attackers got away. Sometimes I thought it was fun but most of the time it just plain hurt and I was scared out of my wits. That was all when I was single. Now I'm a husband and the father of 5 wonderful kids. My priority is my family and not being here for my family is NOT an option.
Everything I said to Zen regarding carrying wasn't preaching from a high horse. I'm just trying to keep him from being stupid and getting shot. Frankly what you've said though is doing nothing but fueling his youthful drive to do something macho. I've seen people die from doing things like that and I've seen people go to prison for a long long time too. I don't need to be a part of that anymore.
Of course I'm just one guy on the internet. To you or anyone else reading this post I'm not anyone important so you can choose to take my advice or not - you're free to do that. Of course I'm also free to offer that advice in hopes someone will heed it.
Oh and if you've taken ANY courses regarding the defensive use of firearms you'd understand my point of view. Since I was financially able to do so I've taken a few courses and every instructor I've spoken to has said basically similar to what I was "preaching". Unless I'm mistaken most firearms instructors will say the same thing.
As for a mass shooting, if I were in the midst of it I'd draw and return fire since I could be the gunman's next target. If I were nearby but NOT in the midst of it I'd retreat to safety and call the police. Why? Read above.
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Post by bladeright on Dec 14, 2012 14:11:23 GMT
im an advocate of open carry, but make sure you study the law and know your rights, get a blacks law dictionary to look at some of the words used and how they can apply to you. for instance if you claim you are a person you are considered a corporation or an estate and more.
dont register your gun, tmk buying privately you dont have to register
if you own the gun legally, and handgun can be owned legally tmk, you SHOULD be able to open carry especially if your state is a non license/permission open carry(you can open carry without permission/license).
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