Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2007 2:16:05 GMT
Perhaps some of you have seen the post I made in the Cafe about 'Out of Reach Swords'. The first one I mentioned there was a sidesword by Gus Trim. Because I do not have $525 to spend on a sword I'd be using to more or less LEARN how to fight with, I'd rather initially buy something cheaper until my skills are better. A good compromise that caught my eye in my CasIberia/Hanwei catalog was the Paul Chen Sidesword(which also comes in a 'Practical' flavor, that i'm also interested in). Now this is mostly to ShooterMike, since I know he has one, but any other input would be appreciated. What do you think of this Paul Chen sword? From the picture it looks attractive, and the complex hilt, while not my favorite, is far from my least liked(it's actually pretty cool looking). Specifically: How does it handle, how durable is it, how sharp is it, how does it cut, and lastly, is it worth it? Anyway, I've just ordered some more old manuals from www.jaredkirby.com regarding the sidesword(marozzo, agrippa, and others), and learning this material would be the primary purpose of this sword, but I also like cutting various targets. Would this sword fit the bill nicely?
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Mar 9, 2007 3:01:42 GMT
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Mar 9, 2007 3:16:34 GMT
...A good compromise that caught my eye in my CasIberia/Hanwei catalog was the Paul Chen Sidesword(which also comes in a 'Practical' flavor, that i'm also interested in). Now this is mostly to ShooterMike, since I know he has one, but any other input would be appreciated. What do you think of this Paul Chen sword? From the picture it looks attractive, and the complex hilt, while not my favorite, is far from my least liked(it's actually pretty cool looking). Specifically: How does it handle, how durable is it, how sharp is it, how does it cut, and lastly, is it worth it? Adam, You are in luck. I had this very sword out with me while testing the Gen 2 Viking sword last weekend. I liked it originally, but now I am just a little bit disgusted with it. Paricularly with the grip. IT'S HOLLOW PLASTIC FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD!!! I flubbed a single bottle cut and the grip shifted. I noticed the pommel was then a little loose so I turned it...and everything went lopsided and looked screwed up. So I unscrewed the pommel and disassembled the hilt to see what was wrong. This is what I found. The threaded portion at the back of the tang bent, causing everything to become out of alignment. Now I don't even plan on putting it back together. I decided I'm gonna buy another inexpensive ATrim from Lee Reeves and fit this most beautiful of guards on it, to have a durable CUT and thrust sword. But I will miss having a nice scabbard.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Mar 9, 2007 3:25:08 GMT
Ew nasty nasty plastic!
Get it away get it away get it away get it AWAY!
I'm not suprised the tang bent. COme to think of it, should tangs be tempered? You'd think that after a hard blow, the tang's pliability should matter and tangs shouldn't just be a hunk of weak steel.
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Mar 9, 2007 3:31:56 GMT
I'm not suprised the tang bent. COme to think of it, should tangs be tempered? You'd think that after a hard blow, the tang's pliability should matter and tangs shouldn't just be a hunk of weak steel. I think the proper way to do a tang (though there are a lot of people here who know more than me) is to not harden the tang much, but to temper it well. That way it will flex as much as needed without taking a set, but won't ever crack from stress or impact. And I wasn't clear. It isn't just plastic, IT'S HOLLOW!!! The Whole inside is hollow and the only places the tang touches is at the square cut openings at each end. Very poorly done.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2007 3:42:11 GMT
Well, that's one sword that's now crossed off my must buy list. And I really liked that one too... I was thinking the tang would be more like a Windlass threaded tang, which have full, beefy 5/16" threaded portions.
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Mar 9, 2007 3:45:27 GMT
Hey Kriegschwert, You still got that old ATrim you were trying to sell? I have a guard for it now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2007 4:01:31 GMT
Hey Kriegschwert, You still got that old ATrim you were trying to sell? I have a guard for it now. Yep, still got it, though I've reprofiled the edges to about roughly 45 degrees from the original 60 degrees, although I still haven't gotten around to the final polishing of the edges.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2007 19:11:00 GMT
Dang.... that sword looked really nice... how long ago did you buy it and do you think it has been updated at all(as happens occasionally in the production sword business)?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2007 3:22:25 GMT
Oh man, this so sucks. I've already ordered one. I suppose I can only hope that there have been some improvments since then, but I doubt it. Well, I guess I'll just find out when mine gets here. -John
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2007 17:44:44 GMT
Good, Take that plunge for me, HAHA!
Anyway, if we can assume that the tang weakness was a QC issue that is isolated(I hope), then I can make the grip myself...I already figured my entire process to do it. Other than that I think it'll make a good sword.
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Mar 12, 2007 19:01:52 GMT
Adam, I bought it late last summer. But of course, it could have been sitting around for quite a while.
I have (unknowingly) bought three swords with welded-on threaded tang rods like this. Every one of them has bent or broken without much strain being placed on the sword.
The problems seem to stem from two causes. As DJG alluded to, the heat that's applied during welding causes the metal to soften. The heat generated by welding is pretty variable. In order to first harden, then properly temper the tang back, the process would be more difficult and time-consuming than building a proper hilt in the first place.
The second likely cause it the use of a threaded rod that is not up to the needs in the first place.
My rule will henceforth and forever more be, "No threaded tangs with screw-on pommels." This obviously does not include ATrim swords with pommel nuts, as the tang design on Gus' swords is completely different and likely stronger than even peened hilts.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2007 19:42:30 GMT
It really irks the hell outta me to see swords made like this. The tang looks very robust in and of itself, but then they weld on a tiny threaded rod to hold the whole thing together! Cold Steel's hand-and-a-half sword is the same way, at least they were a year or so ago. They take a beautifully-tempered, nicely-finished blade with a wide, stout tang, and then they weld on a 3/16" partially-threaded rod on the end! WTF???
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2007 20:09:58 GMT
That's true, but a vendor at a ren. faire I went to loves the Cold Steel HNH, says he cuts with it all the time and it's never given him trouble. Just to give him a plug, he runs www.ageofchivalry.com, his name is Brady. He's a very nice guy that gives a lifetime guarantee to his slayer sword and also all his paul chen practicals: If you break it, they replace it. Period. (a guildman I know busted the hilt off his paul chen practical william marshall by using it to murder stroke a car hood. He got a new one)
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Mar 12, 2007 21:28:19 GMT
One of the other swords I broke the tang on was the Cold Steel Hand-and-a-half. I did a little pell work with it (like 25-30 blows) and the handle became loose. A couple of shooting buddies were there when I walked back with it. I was showing it to them because the grip seemed to have loosened up, when the pommel just fell off on the ground.
You should have heard their laughter and the progression of shock, then dismay, then anger on my face. What a piece of crap hilt. At least the one I have is.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2007 22:21:35 GMT
A couple of other folks on other fora have had the same trouble, that's why I happened to think of that particular sword in relation to the Chen sidesword. A guy on SFI posted the same exact findings. He was cutting with his CS hand-and-a-half and the grip started to feel loose, so he stopped to check it out and the pommel just dropped right off with the welded portion of the tang still inside of it. Why? For gawd's sake, why? What's the point of building a really nice sword and then using a Mickey Mouse hilt assembly? It defies reason, as they could make the thing much stronger while retaining the current price point... They could do the epoxy-and-peen method like Gen2 or use beefier threads like Windlass...
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Mar 12, 2007 22:29:27 GMT
on a similar, but countering note, my shrewsbury doesn't have a screw-on pommel but a screw on pommel nut. The pommel itself is held in by it's own friction but can easily be taken out with a few pounds of "oomph manliness." But anyway, the tang has held up marvelously. I've put it through similar tests as that ol' picture of me cleaving a severed tree limb stumb in half.
The tang is certainly not beffy but I can't "really" complain because of how well it has held up over my continual abuse. That said, it does make some MEAN draw cuts on gumbo-limbo trees, too.
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Mar 13, 2007 0:45:01 GMT
Thanks DJG. That's a new one I hadn't thought of, and a great idea. As a follow up on the CS Hand-and-a-half, I really liked the blade as it cut well and seemed like it would be super durable. So I invested the time to move the whole grip/tang/guard-shoulder two inches forward. Then the rear of the tang was milled down to the 1/4-inch diameter of the broken rod, filed round and threaded by hand using an appropriate size die. I made sure to use a radiused end mill on the tang so there wouldn't be a sharp shoulder that would result in a stress point. It was then reassembled and it looked like new, except the blade was two inches shorter. It handled like a dream. POB was about 3 inches and it was lightening fast. I took it to so some cutting. On about the fourth or fifth cut I decided to try a two-handed back cut. Halfway through the cut the pommel snapped off in my left hand. And I have it on video. I really look disappointed, if you can believe that.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Mar 13, 2007 1:19:33 GMT
luck has nothing to do with it. Cold steel's shoddy workmanship does. I've heard of this happening more often than not with the hand and a half.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Mar 13, 2007 1:52:53 GMT
then it was his bad luck for buying the swordin the first place
|
|