Universal Swords French Mameluke Saber
Oct 12, 2012 16:45:36 GMT
Post by Anders on Oct 12, 2012 16:45:36 GMT
Introduction:
I had been in the mood for a new sword for a while but hadn't been able to settle for one. I didn't want to order from the US due to insane custom fees. I had been eyeing the Czech stuff but wasn't sure what to expect from them, and most swords in my price range looked unattractive if not out-right questionable. I considered a Huawei sword, but wasn't sure I wanted another sharp katana, and while I was hesitating the only model I was into was sold out.
So, I wasn't really getting anywhere.
Then one day I checked out Gavelins Sword. They are, as far as I know, the only importer of decent high-profile swords in Sweden, usually carrying Hanwei stuff. I was half-heartedly hoping he might have a Hanwei Scottish Backsword, which is a sword I have been somewhat interested in for a while.
I was then surprised to see that he now sold a handful what I thought must be swords from Weapon Edge India. Turns out I was wrong about that – it was actually products from WE's older brother and presumed arch-rival Universal Swords. Some of you will know their products from their retailer Military Heritage. In my defense, though, Gavelins was using Weapon Edge's promotional photos.
Anyway, I thought this was a good opportunity – I'd wanted to try out these Indian sabers for a while but never took the plunge. I figured if I ordered from a local importer, at least I wouldn't have to wait two months for the sword to clear customs and this way I could get a decent idea what to expect from this maker.
I picked the mameluke because I thought it was the most stylish ones out of the offered models and because I have been in kind of an orientalism mood for a while. Back when I was considering a saber the first time around, I actually thought the French mameluke was too curved for my taste. These days, however, I find the curve to be actually quite attractive. I guess taste really does change with time.
Historical overview:
After Napoleon Bonaparte's ”Oriental” campaign to Egypt and Syria, his army brought back the so called ”Mameluke sword” - middle eastern scimitars used by the Mamluks. These swords became popular among cavalry officers, as they were considered stylish and exotic. The style soon became so popular that the Europeans began to make their own versions. To this day, this expression of romantic orientalism still remains in many ceremonial military swords, such as the US Marine Officer sword or the British General Officer saber.
This replica features a fairly typical mameluke hilt and a western saber blade in what I'm guessing is the hussar style. I am not aware if it is based on an existing historical pattern. If so, this was never advertised.
Full Disclosure:
I am neither an expert on Napoleonic weapons, nor is my sword collection very impressive by the standards of this forum. I only own a handful of swords, so my impressions of this one will come down to comparissons to other swords I've handled in general.
Also, a caveat: I don't really give a damn about historical accuracy – all that matters to me is wether or not the sword seems to be a decent weapon in its own right.
Initial Impressions:
After pulling it out of the carboard box, my very first impression was that the hilt looked smaller than I expected. Turns out there's a reason for that, but more on that later.
My second impression was how pretty it looked – arriving in its scabbard, with the shiny brass parts, black leather and wooden hilt, it was one of the most aestetically pleasing swords I've purchased.
Upon drawing it, I did find the square-ish hilt somewhat uncomfortable. However, after handling it for a while, I still find the blasted square-ish hilt somewhat uncomfortable. >_<
On the other hand, the blade was beautiful, unblemished and perfectly straight on the distal. So, if nothing else, it sure looks great. It arrived covered in some kind of oil that was surprisingly difficult to clean off.
The hilt and blade appeared to be completely solid on first inspection, but since then I have noticed a very slight shifting motion in the blade when touched, as if there is a tiny little space in the hilt for the tang to move. Not sure if that is any reason to concern – over all it still feels pretty secure.
Statistics:
Blade Length: 85 cm. (33.5”)
Handle Length: The inner side grip is 10 cm (4”) long. The whole handle is about 12 cm long. (Ca 5”.)
Overall Length: 99 cm. (36”)
Guard Width: 12.5 cm. (5”)
Point of Balance: About 22 cm (9”) from the guard.
Center of Percussion: Assuming I did this right, I think the CoP is about 25 cm (10”) from the tip.
Weight: Advertised by seller as 920 grams, which would have been nice. Perhaps that's after sharpening? Be that as it may, mine came up at 1072 grams, sans scabbard. (Ca 2.36 lbs.)
Components:
The Blade:
The blade is long and strongly curved. The curve looks clean and uniform, and is ca 5.5 cm (2.2”) deep at the most.
The blade is ca 3 cm (1.2”) broad, and only tapers a few milimeters before turning into a graceful hatchet point. It has a false edge of about 18 cm. (7”)
The back is 7 mm thick at the base and the blade tapers to a thickness of 5 mm near the tip. However it appears to be only 4 mm at the termination of the fuller.
I believe this is because the fuller terminates artificially – they simply stopped grinding it there, rather than letting the fuller naturally phase into the distal taper. This results in what seems to be a 1 mm bulge on the blade after the fuller ends. Realistically the blade should slim down to at least 3 mm after the fuller. If I end up reshaping the blade, fixing that is probably the first place to start.
Anyway, this level of distal taper is probably pretty standard for replicas in this price range, though I am to understand that historical sabers had far more extreme distal tapers.
Base thickness compared to my antique infantry saber. Not that bad.
Etched into the back near the hilt is the name ”Klingenthal.”
The blade has perfect alignment and is rather stiff, but does flex somewhat. Aestetically, it's definitely shinier than what I would consider a satin finish though still not quite a perfect mirror shine - looking close I can see tiny grind marks in the steel. It has fairly clean lines, though looking at how the light falls on the fuller I concluded that it is not perfectly even. Running my fingers (with a piece of thin cloth underneath) along the fuller reveals that it is indeed slightly uneven in depth. This isn't especially noticable otherwise, though.
The blade is unsharpened, though the point is still pretty acute.
The Handle:
The hilt consists of two slabs of wood pinned to what seems to be a brass frame, within which I presume the tang rests. As I understand, this is how historical mameluke swords were designed as well.
The 10 cm grip is just large enough to fit my hand, feeling neither too cramped nor too long. The hilt curls up under the pinky, providing a secure grip. It works fine both in a hammer grip and a forward pivoting grip. With gloves, it may be slightly tight but still manegable.
Dave and Luna have awesome fencing gloves. I have these cheap things.
The one thing I dislike is that the grip is a rounded square rather than proper oval. I find this kinda uncomfortable, and it seems to prevent me from getting a genuinely secure grip. I suppose it would be an easy thing to break out some files and sandpaper and fix it myself. However, right now I don't really want to mess with such a pretty new sword.
The hilt may be slightly misaligned with the blade. Like, one degree or so. It doesn't really bother me, though, and bear in mind that I'm insanely, obsessively, almost pathologically anal about that sort of thing. So, if I'm okay with it, I suspect most normal people wouldn't even notice.
The Guard:
The guard is made out of brass and is quite a bit smaller and shorter than I expected it to be. Recall I still thought this was a Weapon Edge saber? Turns out that while a lot of their swords look identical, WE and US do use somewhat different hilt specs:
Universal Swords on the left, Weapon Edge India on the right.
I think I would have prefered the WE hilt, frankly, if only because I think the longer cross gives the sword nicer proportions.
I have my doubts about the level of protection this guard provides. While there is probably a practical way to use this type of sword without losing your fingers, I would be somewhat nervous to have to rely on it in a real fight.
The Scabbard:
The scabbard is made out of wood, dressed in black leather (or, more likely, a leather-like synthetic material) and brass parts, which include two suspension rings. The whole package seems solid without being bulky and when sheathed the sword fits tightly with absolutely zero rattling or moving around.
That sword ain't going nowhere.
If anything, it fits a bit too tightly – drawing the sword after sheathing it all the way actually takes a bit of effort. Upon inspection, I think this is mostly because the right side langet on the guard presses too tightly against the scabbard. I'm not sure if this is a common issue with this model, or just my sword having a slightly wry guard. This might correct itself in time via normal wear and tear. Anyway, I prefer this way to the sword rattling about and falling out of the scabbard on its own.
The fact that the scabbard has suspension rings was one of the things I found attractive about this sword – I wanted something I could easily rig to carry around if I felt like it. However, after playing around with an improvised suspension for a while, I conclude that the curve and weight of the blade makes the scabbard want to turn edge up, even when I try to hold it edge down.
What sorcery is this!?
Seems to be a combo of the foible being too heavy and the rings being too close to each other. I have no idea how to properly wear this thing – the easiest solution is probably to simply wear it edge-up, like a katana or shashka.
Handling Characteristics:
I'll just make this as quick and painless as possible: Yes, this is a rather hefty weapon.
It's not the most unwieldly sword I have handled (*coughDSASquirecough*) but then again it's far from the most responsive. The generally thick blade and conservative distal taper gives the sword an almost katana-like character – it wants to cut and doesn't recover easily. In fact, when comparing it to how my DF o-katana handles in just one hand, I actually think this is the less responsive one of the two.
My only other saber-type production sword is my Valiant Armory Warder, which I unfortunately don't have on hand at the time of writing. However, I am fairly certain the mameluke feels heavier. And my (somewhat flimsy) antique infantry saber is so much lighter it's almost ridiculous.
Above, a whimpy little metal twig. Below, a crude steel club. Alas, my ideal sword would be something right between these two.
Over-all, this saber is not too clumsy to wield – I could see it function as a weapon for someone used to it – but after swinging it a bit and going through the classic guards my shoulder and wrist do start to ache a bit. Granted, I'm rather out of shape, and sharpening the blade might lighten it somewhat, but still. This certainly isn't a sword for weaklings.
Test Cutting
While this particular retailer apparently sharpens all swords he sells, I had the opportunity to specify an unsharpened one. As such, it can not be used for cutting at this time.
However, if I may speculate, the sheer blade presence of this sword makes me suspect that if properly sharpened, it should be able to deliver devastatingly powerful cuts.
Conclusions
I'm not 100% satisfied, but in all honesty it could be worse - this sword definitely has both good and bad things going for it. Mainly, I would have prefered it to be at least a bit lighter and livelier. Even if the POB had been just an inch lower I think it would have handled much better. On the other hand, it's certainly not unusable and I cannot find any real faults with the general quality. As far as fit and finish is concerned, this is probably about as good a sword you can expect to find for 300 bucks or less, at least in my experience. Beyond that, it mostly depends on what qualities you are looking for in your sword. On this particular model, the weight and uncomfortable grip turned out to be unfortunate annoyances for me.
(Also, the fact that it was a different sword than the one I thought I was buying, but that was mostly my own fault for not asking first.)
At the very least, though, I'd absolutely be willing to explore other models from the same maker if this is the general level of quality I can expect from them.
Pros:
-Totes solid.
-A nice, well-shaped blade.
-Comes with a nice, well-fitting scabbard, suspension rings and all.
-Generally pretty. I'd wear it as a kind of jewellry if that wasn't really illegal.
-Most likely a ferocious cutter if properly sharpened.
Cons:
-Somewhat crude geometry, distal taper could have been more progressive.
-Quite heavy for this type of sword, with a high POB. Demanding to swing around.
-Square-ish hilt may feel uncomfortable. I personally can't seem to get used to it.
-Langets grip the scabbard too tightly, making it a bit difficult to draw. (Might just be this sword.)
-The scabbard suspension rings are too close, and the weight and shape of the blade seem to force the sword to turn edge-up no matter how you suspend it.
Other:
-Comes unsharpened from the manufacturer, which may be a good or bad thing depending on what you are after.
-Supposedly these Indian forges use somewhat soft heat treatment. I am unable to tell if that is really the case.
The Bottom Line:
If your swinging arm is in good enough shape that you won't mind a bit of heft, and you are looking for a solid, powerful and good-looking saber in the mameluke style, I would say this is an over-all good sword for the price.
On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend it to those looking for a light and swift saber for agile fencing or controlled sparring. This be a massive and somewhat brutish sword.
I had been in the mood for a new sword for a while but hadn't been able to settle for one. I didn't want to order from the US due to insane custom fees. I had been eyeing the Czech stuff but wasn't sure what to expect from them, and most swords in my price range looked unattractive if not out-right questionable. I considered a Huawei sword, but wasn't sure I wanted another sharp katana, and while I was hesitating the only model I was into was sold out.
So, I wasn't really getting anywhere.
Then one day I checked out Gavelins Sword. They are, as far as I know, the only importer of decent high-profile swords in Sweden, usually carrying Hanwei stuff. I was half-heartedly hoping he might have a Hanwei Scottish Backsword, which is a sword I have been somewhat interested in for a while.
I was then surprised to see that he now sold a handful what I thought must be swords from Weapon Edge India. Turns out I was wrong about that – it was actually products from WE's older brother and presumed arch-rival Universal Swords. Some of you will know their products from their retailer Military Heritage. In my defense, though, Gavelins was using Weapon Edge's promotional photos.
Anyway, I thought this was a good opportunity – I'd wanted to try out these Indian sabers for a while but never took the plunge. I figured if I ordered from a local importer, at least I wouldn't have to wait two months for the sword to clear customs and this way I could get a decent idea what to expect from this maker.
I picked the mameluke because I thought it was the most stylish ones out of the offered models and because I have been in kind of an orientalism mood for a while. Back when I was considering a saber the first time around, I actually thought the French mameluke was too curved for my taste. These days, however, I find the curve to be actually quite attractive. I guess taste really does change with time.
Historical overview:
After Napoleon Bonaparte's ”Oriental” campaign to Egypt and Syria, his army brought back the so called ”Mameluke sword” - middle eastern scimitars used by the Mamluks. These swords became popular among cavalry officers, as they were considered stylish and exotic. The style soon became so popular that the Europeans began to make their own versions. To this day, this expression of romantic orientalism still remains in many ceremonial military swords, such as the US Marine Officer sword or the British General Officer saber.
This replica features a fairly typical mameluke hilt and a western saber blade in what I'm guessing is the hussar style. I am not aware if it is based on an existing historical pattern. If so, this was never advertised.
Full Disclosure:
I am neither an expert on Napoleonic weapons, nor is my sword collection very impressive by the standards of this forum. I only own a handful of swords, so my impressions of this one will come down to comparissons to other swords I've handled in general.
Also, a caveat: I don't really give a damn about historical accuracy – all that matters to me is wether or not the sword seems to be a decent weapon in its own right.
Initial Impressions:
After pulling it out of the carboard box, my very first impression was that the hilt looked smaller than I expected. Turns out there's a reason for that, but more on that later.
My second impression was how pretty it looked – arriving in its scabbard, with the shiny brass parts, black leather and wooden hilt, it was one of the most aestetically pleasing swords I've purchased.
Upon drawing it, I did find the square-ish hilt somewhat uncomfortable. However, after handling it for a while, I still find the blasted square-ish hilt somewhat uncomfortable. >_<
On the other hand, the blade was beautiful, unblemished and perfectly straight on the distal. So, if nothing else, it sure looks great. It arrived covered in some kind of oil that was surprisingly difficult to clean off.
The hilt and blade appeared to be completely solid on first inspection, but since then I have noticed a very slight shifting motion in the blade when touched, as if there is a tiny little space in the hilt for the tang to move. Not sure if that is any reason to concern – over all it still feels pretty secure.
Statistics:
Blade Length: 85 cm. (33.5”)
Handle Length: The inner side grip is 10 cm (4”) long. The whole handle is about 12 cm long. (Ca 5”.)
Overall Length: 99 cm. (36”)
Guard Width: 12.5 cm. (5”)
Point of Balance: About 22 cm (9”) from the guard.
Center of Percussion: Assuming I did this right, I think the CoP is about 25 cm (10”) from the tip.
Weight: Advertised by seller as 920 grams, which would have been nice. Perhaps that's after sharpening? Be that as it may, mine came up at 1072 grams, sans scabbard. (Ca 2.36 lbs.)
Components:
The Blade:
The blade is long and strongly curved. The curve looks clean and uniform, and is ca 5.5 cm (2.2”) deep at the most.
The blade is ca 3 cm (1.2”) broad, and only tapers a few milimeters before turning into a graceful hatchet point. It has a false edge of about 18 cm. (7”)
The back is 7 mm thick at the base and the blade tapers to a thickness of 5 mm near the tip. However it appears to be only 4 mm at the termination of the fuller.
I believe this is because the fuller terminates artificially – they simply stopped grinding it there, rather than letting the fuller naturally phase into the distal taper. This results in what seems to be a 1 mm bulge on the blade after the fuller ends. Realistically the blade should slim down to at least 3 mm after the fuller. If I end up reshaping the blade, fixing that is probably the first place to start.
Anyway, this level of distal taper is probably pretty standard for replicas in this price range, though I am to understand that historical sabers had far more extreme distal tapers.
Base thickness compared to my antique infantry saber. Not that bad.
Etched into the back near the hilt is the name ”Klingenthal.”
The blade has perfect alignment and is rather stiff, but does flex somewhat. Aestetically, it's definitely shinier than what I would consider a satin finish though still not quite a perfect mirror shine - looking close I can see tiny grind marks in the steel. It has fairly clean lines, though looking at how the light falls on the fuller I concluded that it is not perfectly even. Running my fingers (with a piece of thin cloth underneath) along the fuller reveals that it is indeed slightly uneven in depth. This isn't especially noticable otherwise, though.
The blade is unsharpened, though the point is still pretty acute.
The Handle:
The hilt consists of two slabs of wood pinned to what seems to be a brass frame, within which I presume the tang rests. As I understand, this is how historical mameluke swords were designed as well.
The 10 cm grip is just large enough to fit my hand, feeling neither too cramped nor too long. The hilt curls up under the pinky, providing a secure grip. It works fine both in a hammer grip and a forward pivoting grip. With gloves, it may be slightly tight but still manegable.
Dave and Luna have awesome fencing gloves. I have these cheap things.
The one thing I dislike is that the grip is a rounded square rather than proper oval. I find this kinda uncomfortable, and it seems to prevent me from getting a genuinely secure grip. I suppose it would be an easy thing to break out some files and sandpaper and fix it myself. However, right now I don't really want to mess with such a pretty new sword.
The hilt may be slightly misaligned with the blade. Like, one degree or so. It doesn't really bother me, though, and bear in mind that I'm insanely, obsessively, almost pathologically anal about that sort of thing. So, if I'm okay with it, I suspect most normal people wouldn't even notice.
The Guard:
The guard is made out of brass and is quite a bit smaller and shorter than I expected it to be. Recall I still thought this was a Weapon Edge saber? Turns out that while a lot of their swords look identical, WE and US do use somewhat different hilt specs:
Universal Swords on the left, Weapon Edge India on the right.
I think I would have prefered the WE hilt, frankly, if only because I think the longer cross gives the sword nicer proportions.
I have my doubts about the level of protection this guard provides. While there is probably a practical way to use this type of sword without losing your fingers, I would be somewhat nervous to have to rely on it in a real fight.
The Scabbard:
The scabbard is made out of wood, dressed in black leather (or, more likely, a leather-like synthetic material) and brass parts, which include two suspension rings. The whole package seems solid without being bulky and when sheathed the sword fits tightly with absolutely zero rattling or moving around.
That sword ain't going nowhere.
If anything, it fits a bit too tightly – drawing the sword after sheathing it all the way actually takes a bit of effort. Upon inspection, I think this is mostly because the right side langet on the guard presses too tightly against the scabbard. I'm not sure if this is a common issue with this model, or just my sword having a slightly wry guard. This might correct itself in time via normal wear and tear. Anyway, I prefer this way to the sword rattling about and falling out of the scabbard on its own.
The fact that the scabbard has suspension rings was one of the things I found attractive about this sword – I wanted something I could easily rig to carry around if I felt like it. However, after playing around with an improvised suspension for a while, I conclude that the curve and weight of the blade makes the scabbard want to turn edge up, even when I try to hold it edge down.
What sorcery is this!?
Seems to be a combo of the foible being too heavy and the rings being too close to each other. I have no idea how to properly wear this thing – the easiest solution is probably to simply wear it edge-up, like a katana or shashka.
Handling Characteristics:
I'll just make this as quick and painless as possible: Yes, this is a rather hefty weapon.
It's not the most unwieldly sword I have handled (*coughDSASquirecough*) but then again it's far from the most responsive. The generally thick blade and conservative distal taper gives the sword an almost katana-like character – it wants to cut and doesn't recover easily. In fact, when comparing it to how my DF o-katana handles in just one hand, I actually think this is the less responsive one of the two.
My only other saber-type production sword is my Valiant Armory Warder, which I unfortunately don't have on hand at the time of writing. However, I am fairly certain the mameluke feels heavier. And my (somewhat flimsy) antique infantry saber is so much lighter it's almost ridiculous.
Above, a whimpy little metal twig. Below, a crude steel club. Alas, my ideal sword would be something right between these two.
Over-all, this saber is not too clumsy to wield – I could see it function as a weapon for someone used to it – but after swinging it a bit and going through the classic guards my shoulder and wrist do start to ache a bit. Granted, I'm rather out of shape, and sharpening the blade might lighten it somewhat, but still. This certainly isn't a sword for weaklings.
Test Cutting
While this particular retailer apparently sharpens all swords he sells, I had the opportunity to specify an unsharpened one. As such, it can not be used for cutting at this time.
However, if I may speculate, the sheer blade presence of this sword makes me suspect that if properly sharpened, it should be able to deliver devastatingly powerful cuts.
Conclusions
I'm not 100% satisfied, but in all honesty it could be worse - this sword definitely has both good and bad things going for it. Mainly, I would have prefered it to be at least a bit lighter and livelier. Even if the POB had been just an inch lower I think it would have handled much better. On the other hand, it's certainly not unusable and I cannot find any real faults with the general quality. As far as fit and finish is concerned, this is probably about as good a sword you can expect to find for 300 bucks or less, at least in my experience. Beyond that, it mostly depends on what qualities you are looking for in your sword. On this particular model, the weight and uncomfortable grip turned out to be unfortunate annoyances for me.
(Also, the fact that it was a different sword than the one I thought I was buying, but that was mostly my own fault for not asking first.)
At the very least, though, I'd absolutely be willing to explore other models from the same maker if this is the general level of quality I can expect from them.
Pros:
-Totes solid.
-A nice, well-shaped blade.
-Comes with a nice, well-fitting scabbard, suspension rings and all.
-Generally pretty. I'd wear it as a kind of jewellry if that wasn't really illegal.
-Most likely a ferocious cutter if properly sharpened.
Cons:
-Somewhat crude geometry, distal taper could have been more progressive.
-Quite heavy for this type of sword, with a high POB. Demanding to swing around.
-Square-ish hilt may feel uncomfortable. I personally can't seem to get used to it.
-Langets grip the scabbard too tightly, making it a bit difficult to draw. (Might just be this sword.)
-The scabbard suspension rings are too close, and the weight and shape of the blade seem to force the sword to turn edge-up no matter how you suspend it.
Other:
-Comes unsharpened from the manufacturer, which may be a good or bad thing depending on what you are after.
-Supposedly these Indian forges use somewhat soft heat treatment. I am unable to tell if that is really the case.
The Bottom Line:
If your swinging arm is in good enough shape that you won't mind a bit of heft, and you are looking for a solid, powerful and good-looking saber in the mameluke style, I would say this is an over-all good sword for the price.
On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend it to those looking for a light and swift saber for agile fencing or controlled sparring. This be a massive and somewhat brutish sword.
