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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 2:59:14 GMT
:?: After reading several smithing threads and blade reviews on here, there is still one area that I am completely lost. What are the differences, or pros and cons to both through hardened and differentially hardened blades. I'm asking more for a tactical/european as opposed to an oriental. Currently talking to odinblades about having a custom piece done, and thats one of the options I could use a lot of input before I make a decision. Please be as detailed as possible, like benefits with longer vs. shorter blades, double vs. single edged, high carbon vs. tool steel vs. spring steel. I know I might get flamed for asking as someone else has probably posted a similar question, but as of yet I havent found the thread that answers my questions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 4:10:23 GMT
Western blades are typically through hardened if I've got it right, the idea is thay can bend like a spring and return to shape. They don't need to be razor sharp to cut, allowing for techniques such as half swording, wher ethe blade can be gripped to provide a stronger thrust. Japanese blades traditionally used differential hardening because they needed a very hard edge to get the razor sharpness, which they need in the way that they're used. These DH blades needed to have some 'give' so they didn't break, so the edge was hard and brittle, the back was soft and flexible to take up shock to the blade, but they didn't have a spring temper like traditional TH euro swords. Japanese swords bent too far stayed bent, they were designed to do this rather than break. A DH sword will give you a harder and sharper edge with better edge retention on a TH sword, but that's not necessary on a TH sword, which is much more durable than a DH blade, less likely to chip the edge, less likely to bend.
Benefits, longer blade has more reach, giving advantage at longer range, short blades have the advantage very close in, close quarters combat, hence the use of the gladius by ancient romans. Single edge has four planes of attack, double edge has twice as many as it can cut in the opposite direction in all these planes too.
A tactical/european sword can have a straight or curved blade, so you need to decide on the fighting style it will be used with, and whether the focus will be cut, thrust or cut & thrust.
Don't know enough about steels to give advice.
No harm in asking, you're just trying to figure out the specs for a custom sword, and figuring out your requirements, that's cool!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 4:22:10 GMT
I wasnt specifically referring to the benefits of long vs. short blade in general, but a dh vs th longblade, and dh vs. th shortblade; same goes for dh vs th single edge, or th vs dh double edge; though you did answer the part about tactical/european and oriental for th vs dh
On a side note, the custom blade im having odinblades make is based of a langes messer (two handed falchion) with a partial double edge the last third of the blade length
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 5:00:42 GMT
To be more specific, and possibly get more on point advice regarding which I should use, its going to be a tactical, multipurpose EDC sword. Please dont argue the pros and cons (read lack of usefullness) of a multi purpose sword. By the same token, please do not argue the weight/balance of the sword, as I am very comforable with tip heavy greatswords weighing upwards of 10 lbs and actually prefer the added swing momentum. An excess of upper body strength coupled with a large frame helps. I have my reasons, logical and thought out with input from John.
That being said, the general design is based off of his Langes messer (as stated above) with some severe modifications:
The OAL of the blade should be about 48"-50" with a blade length over 36"
Last 3rd of the blade edge protruding beyond that of the first 2/3 Similar to a Yataghan in proportion (not kukri proportions) and will be a much broader edge than the first 2/3 of the blade. This will (with the right geometric engineering) give the end 1/3 the ablity to be batoned easily as a chopping device while the first 2/3 will take on more of a vorpal trait, (I know D&D term, but cant think of a better one,) with the extra mass and momentum at the protruding tip can catch limbs, necks, etc and cleave through easily with a well placed swing.
The back edge of the final 1/3 of the blade will also be serrated, helpful for penetration when thrusting such a wide point as well as utilitarian for carving large chunks of meat (dear, bison, etc, not my fallen foe's, lol) Anything more than a foot (final 1/3 blade length) of penetration on a thrust is overkill and leaves you over exposed.
There will be a short break (in style not metal) between the first and second 1/3 of the blade, with a 6 inch perpendicular spike for armor piercing swings, (similar to the hook end of a warhammer,) followed by a short smooth section for batoning. The middle 1/3 of the back edge will not be serrated but saw toothed, primarily like a simple woodsaw.
The bottom 6 inches (I have large hands) of the blade will act as a forward handguard for half swording as well as a balance point for sawing, definately going to have a mini guard and simple wrap, poissibly also a small hole or side mounted nut to attach a bar for the sawing as well.
The hilt will either be a crossbar with D cup or crossbar with 3 bladed/spiked, (havent decided which,) vertical semicircular guards and full hilt will be approxamately 12" The smallish hot peened pommel will have a 2 inch downward spike welded on for backfisting.
The handle istelf will probably be treated lumber or a polycarbonate plastic for durablilty, and wrapped in kevlar/spectra/dyneema/vectran for wear resistance and grip. (I've told John I can aquire the material if he can't.)
With the backspike, it will pretty much be unsheathable, though John is thinking about a way around that. Either way the length of the blade and hilt will be blued/blackened for stealth.
As I'm not the best artist, I'm still working out the sketches. As soon as I have some decent "to scale" ones ill scan and load them for a better overall picture than just the description above. This should give a better idea as to wether I should go with through hardened or differentially hardened. Along with that specific question, any other comments as to the planned design of my field falchion, (still thinking of a suitable name, maybe john will come up with one,) feel free to comment. Suggestions as to specific ideas to remove and why are welcomed, though general flaming for the overall purpose of the blade are not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 6:45:23 GMT
Is it like a cross between a Langes messer and a fantasy LOTR Uruk Hai falchion with some utilitarian modifications?
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 7, 2012 6:49:06 GMT
Wouldn't having such a big and heavy sword make it so that the "hamon/harder/more-brittle" part of a DH blade would not last very long before it breaks/chips, since it not only has to deal with the impact against the target, but also all the extra mass/weight from the metal "behind" it? I'd go with a TH from what you're describing.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Sept 7, 2012 7:27:53 GMT
TH for anything that is supposed to be abused. Honestly, functionally I don't see DH having any advantages, at least not anymore. With our steel and heat treating abilities today we can make a very hard yet flexible spring steel blade. I and other makers I know of have their blades at around 58Rc at the edge and about 55Rc through the body (simply because the steel there is thicker and cools more slowly in quench), this gives plenty of edge retention and edge holding (geometry is just as important here as steel and heat treat) yet still stays plenty flexible enough to absorb shock. Bending 50° out of line with no breaking or set is no problem. DH gives you an even harder edge but that is unnecessary in my opinion. You won't notice a difference between 58 and 60-62Rc (what most hamons have) in cuttings. DH does however give a beautiful hamon, that's of course something to aspire to. So aesthetically, DH is still very much sought after. It also gives a very usable blade, don't get me wrong. It just doesn't handle stress as well as a good TH. Especially on a modern tac sword that is all about performance you don't want DH. Just takes a set too easily and if you have to grind down the blade after a nick and you run out of hamon, the blade's useless (and I have seen many swords where the hamon runs rather close to the edge, the way it comes from the smithy. One or two nicks polished out and you're done). Can't happen on a TH blade. On a blade that is going to be abused in ways swords are normally not intended for, I'd go a bit lower than the mentioned 58Rc. Maybe 52-55Rc at the edge.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 14:05:04 GMT
Yeah pretty much, so far I have hand drawn sketches on graph paper, sending the best proportioned (read to scale) one to mok who's going to do a graphical reimage for me, once I have that I'll post it here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 14:07:18 GMT
Thanks Kuya and Chenessfan, that was the insight I was looking for. A hamon, while aesthetically pleasing, wouldnt really be seen well on a blackened blade. Durablity is the important aspect. So from both of your advices, I'll go with a through hardened.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 16:34:53 GMT
Heres the sketch I'm having MOK reimage, debating on removing the forward spike Attachments:
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