Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 1, 2012 3:50:01 GMT
When there isn't a geometric yokote, why do the sword makers bother with the cross polish and fake yokote at the kissaki/tip? Is it really just because people want the look? Do people even really want the look if it isn't real? Doesn't it feel as cheap and blah as a wire-brushed hamon? Wouldn't a non-cross-polished kissaki (pseudo shobu, I guess?) look better than most of the fake yokote/kissaki jobs?
There are very few cosmetic cross-polishes that actually look good, so why not save time/money and people's eyes by not having your laborers spend the extra time needed on the ugly fake yokote kissakis?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 1, 2012 4:23:18 GMT
There are antique Nihonto that display a cosmetic kissaki. The whole point, no pun intended, of a geometric yokote is largely for display. It is very difficult to forge and polish, thus showing the skill of smith and polisher. Some genuine antiques that started out as geometric are now cosmetic due to over polishing as well.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Sept 1, 2012 4:50:10 GMT
Uh, I would say that the whole point of a geometric yokote is to make for a stronger... point. It's not just a display thing. Well, these days, yes, it mainly is, but it still serves a function.
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Post by frankthebunny on Sept 1, 2012 5:11:04 GMT
without going into great detail, the kissaki is polished differently than the rest of the blade and some of the directions are from ha to mune as opposed to the final linear direction of the length of the blade. the kissaki is "whitened" with certain stones and methods so whether there is an actual angle change from the yokote to the tip or not, the polish is different than the rest or "cross polished". a well formed kissaki is polished in 4 separate areas in traditional stone polishing to create and define the correct shape. there are many historical blades without a angle change and some are thinner and sharper at the tip and others are not as sharp and thicker or reinforced at the tip. remember there were many eras, many schools and many smiths so the kissaki has been through a lot of changes throughout history to say the least.
if done carefully and skillfully, even a kissaki without a physical geometric change can be quite striking. unfortunately, in the world of production swords we see a sloppy kissaki polish way too often. just for the record, the yokote is just a point where the blade ends and the tip/kissaki begins so technically it can't be fake. the reason we see it is because the polishing changes direction from horizontal to vertical at this point
most of the above is referring to the shinogi zukuri and similar blade styles
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 1, 2012 5:23:09 GMT
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 1, 2012 12:02:50 GMT
Ah, so it's OK to have a non-geometic yokote and still have the kissaki cross-polish, so as long as the cross polish is done well?
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Post by LastGodslayer on Sept 1, 2012 12:56:21 GMT
People tend to over complicate this particular issue...
I believe that the yokote has no function. The kissaki DOES! When the shinogi zukuri blade has enough niku, and the ko-shinogi is short enough and/or is angled with the shinogi enough, and the mitsukado is properly placed, the shift in angle at the yokote should be palpable. The kissaki is always polished differently, so whether the blade has sufficient change in geometry or not, it is always cross polished. It is the fact the the change in angle is sudden and clean that creates a palpable yokote. Its a bit like another blade is born out of the yokote at a different angle that ends in a point soon. All this assumes proper geometry and proper polishing (things that are not very common in the production market). If the kissaki is very long, the shift is not as accentuated, so the yokote will not be very palpable. In a ko-kissaki, the shift is so abrupt that it should lead to a very palpable yokote. A kissaki with full fukura (curvature) will make for a less accentuated yokote as for a kamasu kissaki (almost no curvature) will create a very sudden shift in angle so the yokote should be easily felt.
All of this is determined by the forger, and then it must be correctly polished so the features are sharp. Forging a kissaki is difficult and most production katana are not crisply polished, that is why we don't see "real yokote" most of the time.
So, bottom line: In a correctly forged and polished shinogi zukuri blade, as long as the overall geometry and tiredness of the blade allow, there should be a palpable shift in angle at the yokote. Although many nihonto do not feature a palpable yokote, that might be attributed to the blade being tired, badly polished or even having the kissaki poorly shaped (yes... not all nihonto are perfect). A clear, palpable yokote indicates a decently shaped and polished blade. This feature is desirable cosmetically for most people because it emphasizes the kissaki. The durability of the kissaki then depends on the length, curvature and overall geometry but the shinogi zukuri is a functional design so we must imagine that it was intended that the kissaki is properly shaped, so the yokote should be as palpable as the tiredness of the blade allows.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 1, 2012 13:10:26 GMT
Ah, thank you for all of that. I was wondering, because I felt that one of my swords had what I considered a "psuedo-geometric" yokote/kissaki/whatever. I could definitely feel the "plane shift" from the shinogi line into the kissaki, but from the vertical yokote line, the blade surface "sloped" down at a more gradual rate. But from what I'm reading from your post, that should be considered OK as far as shape goes (polish cleanliness/uniformity/whatever being another different factor)?
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Post by LastGodslayer on Sept 1, 2012 15:06:24 GMT
No prob Kuya.
My odachi has the shameful "fake real yokote" (or real fake yokote...) where the kissaki ha was actually ground thinner than the rest of the blade. this is actually worse than the ordinary cross polish we usually get since it weakens the kissaki.
From what you describe i cant make out the correctness of the kissaki shape, but the niku in the kissaki should be the same in the kissaki as in the rest of the blade.
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Post by frankthebunny on Sept 1, 2012 16:09:32 GMT
the bottom line for inexpensive production swords is none of this really matters and if it functions well then it is good. as far as learning more about katana construction and polishing, it's all good info but we can't expect all of this to apply to a sword that costs $250. many of the things we hope for or even expect these days to see on our budget katana are irrelevant when it comes to functionality because the fact is that millions of people practice some form of Japanese sword art including using the swords for tameshigiri, with no issues and many even on a competitive level. sensei use a sub $300 Hanwei, students use PK and PPK everyday, I have seen countless videos of expert cutting done with low cost swords. we are actually very lucky already that we are able to get any hint of nihonto-esque features for such a low cost but if one wanted to truly start studying what makes the real deal so special they could make a small investment in a low level nihonto for a couple Gs and then move on from there. we want our swords to cut like a laser and also make our friends go oooooohhhhhhh when it's hanging over our mantles while also holding up to our comparative inspections. I personally see nothing wrong with wanting as much value for our money as we can get but I think that we sometimes get too hung up on features and tag lines, most of which are just overused sales pitches we hear on vendor sites and ebay. dmascus steel, folded 10,000 times, genuine sting ray skin, razor sharp, double pegged, mirror polish, complex laminations, real geometric yokote and so on and so on. I love the world of production swords and I think that without them most of us would never be able to appreciate the katana in any form other than a ss wall hanger. think about it, all those billions of water bottles running wild with nobody to keep their numbers in check, countless hundreds of thousands of mats and bamboo poles free to conquer and pillage!!! a sword snob might tell you that if it's not a true nihonto or priceless antique that it's not worth owning but then what the heck would millions of students learn tameshigiri with? not a bokken obviously and certainly not a $30,000 antique. love your budget sword, cherish it's amazingly affordable features, cut your targets and even sleep with it by your side but try not to ask too much from it or make unrealistic demands from it because remember, it does so much for us already and asks little in return but maybe some clean oil and possibly a new wrap once in a while I am Josh, I am a bunny and I approve this message
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on Sept 1, 2012 16:36:28 GMT
BINGO...
Most production swords don't actually shift geometry... see the yokote is simply a side effect of the geometry shift. At the kissaki , the geometry shifts from "to the edge' to "to the point". This is a particularly difficult bit of the katana to forge/polish .. so many production blades never shift geometry ... never have a true kissaki ... the just taper off to the shape of a point ... then "fake ' the kissaki with a rough counterpolish.
On swords under $400? $500 ? this is fine... but when you get into more expensive blades your money is going to attention to detail. The kissaki and yokote is a pretty damn big detail. If you can't get that detail right , you can't have confidence in all the other attention to detail that make a katana worth paying more for . This is one of the things Hanwei has always done well...
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Post by LastGodslayer on Sept 1, 2012 17:01:22 GMT
brrr... scary thought!
Hopefully we will see these desirable features trickling down into the budget swords eventually. The same way hishigami and copper or better fittings did.
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