|
Post by fullmetal56 on Aug 22, 2012 5:59:16 GMT
Hello everyone!...again...I have a few questions I would like to ask you guys. And some of them might seem silly to you guys but I'm completely serious about them as answers from people who might have experience with these things would be WAY better than just googling it and getting answers from people who might not actually know. Assume all or most of these questions will pertain to a Japanese style katana as that's my sword of choice. 1. How long can a sword be before it becomes "weak"? I don't really know how to explain this question very well. An example would be Ichigo's tensa zangetsu from the "Bleach" manga. His sword is like more than 2/3rds his body length. I don't know exactly how tall he is but I'm 6'1", (73"), so that's between 48 and 52 inches long total (blade and hilt together). 2. How thick should a fully functional, bone cutting, sword battle ready sword be? This I really have no idea about. I'm not a huge fan of thin swords but I don't want the sword to be so thick that it breaks rather than bends either. So what would be a good thickness for a sword without it appearing to be thin? I'm getting this from pictures of L6 bainite swords at martialartswords.com, they look really thin to me. 3. If I were to take the time to put serrations on the back of the blade would that affect the strength of it? I know they make some machetes with serrations on the back and kind of like the idea of serrations on the back of a katana. I think it would look very cool and possibly menacing. But what I don't know is if it would hurt the sword rather than help it. 4. What is the best hc rockwell hardness for a sword? Simple question, also one I don't know. 5. Can someone please explain the heat treatment process and the order of it? I understand what hardening is and I understand what annealing is, but other than that I'm lost. 6. As a noob, I obviously don't have a lot of experience grinding down a blank piece of flat bar into a sword. I saw a post on here somewhere where a person said something like a jig shouldn't be used by noobs because it doesn't help them obtain the discipline and technique needed to really grind. While I agree with this comment I also believe that being a noob I should use a jig as it will help me make less mistakes, and as time passes I would gain the grinding skills just like a person who doesn't use a jig, it would just take longer because I'd be relying on the jig for the most part. Comments and opinions on this would be awesome. 7. I've heard rumors of some feudal sword makers who made such good blades that they could cleave a pig skull in two and it wouldn't even leave a scratch on the edge. Is it even possible to create an edge like this that is that strong? I've also heard that swords can only cut through bone maybe 4 or 5 time before cracking or breaking. Is it possible to create a blade that wouldn't break or crack and continue to go strong? This is going to sound silly or dumb but lets say it's the zombie apocalypse, well the only way to kill a zombie is to do brain damage or remove the head. Would it be possible to create a sword that can cut through the neck or skull of a bunch of zombies and keep going to do more? That's it for now. If I think of any more I'll do an edit or post a reply.
|
|
|
Post by Adrian Jordan on Aug 22, 2012 6:44:16 GMT
Hello, welcome to SBG! I'll try to answer as many of your questions as well as I can. 1. This will be a general answer you'll run into a lot, and it can get annoying for people who are starting out and trying to understand. It depends on the steel, the geometry and the heat treatment. Nodachi and odachi katanas are extremely long, some in excess of 5 or 6 feet, and are still capable of being wielded without breaking. 2. Most katana are actually about or slightly less than 1/4" thick at most. The geometry and heat treatment, as well as any possible lamination all work together to make the overall strength of the blade very high. Going thicker than that will begin to affect its ability to cut lighter targets. 3. I'm not sure. I don't think it would significantly harm the blade as long as they weren't ground in in such a way as to affect the temper. 4. I'd say that the upper 50's is the most common, thus probably the ideal range. There are some newer "super-steels" that take a very high score, but those are rare. 5. Here is a link to a post with a very good article on heat treatment. While not a step-by-step guide, it is pretty outstanding. forum.sword-buyers-guide.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12090&p=151912&hilit=the+miracle+of+steel+heat+treatment#p1519126. Sorry, but I can't help you at all there. 7. It is very possible to make a sword that could withstand repeated, hard impact with hard, dense material. Some of it has to do with the smith and his ability to forge and shape the sword, but it also has a lot to do with the skill of the wielder. Even the toughest blade will bend or chip if used improperly. I hope this helps a little. Feel free to ask for more clarification, and I'm sure that others will do even better jobs of answering than I could.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2012 6:53:48 GMT
1. forget manga, it's all make believe fantasy, none of it makes sense anyway, look to history books for real ideas, european greatswords and claymores, o-katanas all get quite big, depends on the design, euro-sword designs can support longer functional blades (that actually did see combat use, not temple offering/ceremonial use only like some really ong Japanese blades) due to the design. Claymore - 55" - kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH2060Lowlander Greatsword - 68" - kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=PC2065Great Sword of War - 48" - kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH2424Great Sword - 55" - kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=CS88WGSO-Katana - 44" - kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=DFMOKO-Katana - 48" - kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=CS88BOKOdachi - 68" - kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH2392 (probably more a display piece due to weight) 2. Swords don't need to cut bones, that's movie fantasy nonsense, and an opponent doesn't need to be cut in half or dismembered to be defeated! Blade thickness is not the important factor here, just a very wide angle on the blade edge so the edge doesn't chip or deform on a hard target, and lots of weight. Basically a big meat cleaver. Most Japanese katana (other than older designs built to fight against armour) are meant for unarmoured flesh, they are draw cutting swords degigned to cut flesh, not choppers designed to hack, they're meant for soft to medium targets at best. Yes, they can cut bones, but that's not what they are designed for. If you want bone cutters a European falchion or a Chinese Dadao has the right blade shape and edge for this task. 3. Swords are not machetes, and even machetes don't need saw-back blades and are better off without them in my mind. It's silly and very inefficient to try to saw with a thick blade, and saw-teeth are completely pointless on a sword. If you want menacing, try signing up for sword martial arts classes, and tell me how you feel when you're facing a steel blade, even in kata, swords are menacing enough. If you want more, grit your teeth and make a more menacing face at your opponent! 4. Ideal hardness depends on style of sword and the heat treatment technique used, whether it's through-hardened (same hardenss all the way through) or whether it's differentially hardened so it has a harder edge. A TH blade is harder than the back of a DH blade nut not as hard as the edge, hardness figures vary within a range for each. 5. Dont have ime to explain heat treatment, that's a subject in itself in terms of metallurgy, I'll let others explain, depends on whether you're talking TH or DH. 6. Huge question about how to create a sword blade by stock removal, not my area of knowledge... 7. European swords designed to combat armour without being destroyed could withstand continuous use against hard targets, that's what they were designed to do. An battle axe, mace or warhammer would do the job even better! Hope this helps!
|
|
|
Post by Svadilfari on Aug 22, 2012 7:08:35 GMT
Well..I can't answer most of your questions, except maybe #5 Annealing is the process whereby you heat steel red hot, then let it cool very slowly..this is to 'normalize ' the steel, removing manufacturing stresses. Hardening involves suddenly quenching the red hot steel in some sort of liquid..this produces a very hard..yet brittle surface to the steel. You could put a very nice edge on the blade ..with a lot of effort, admittedly..BUT..the blade would possibly shatter at the first blow due to it's brittleness. Tempering..Ahh..now *here's* the art and craft of creating a functional and USEABLE blade. Once hardened..a blade is at it's hardest and most brittle stage. Tempering involves re-heating the blade..till it's red hot again, then watching the colours in the blade form as it's cooling naturally..when it reaches the correct colour for the type of blade desired..then it's quickly quenched again. Another way to anneal is to place the blade in a tank of molten material..eg Lead..or salt. This heats the blade to the correct temperatue all over..then you remove and quench This leaves the blade with a certain hardness, and durability, so that it can function without being brittle, or requiring constant sharpening. For a knife..this can be a fairly straight forward operation..given the relatively short length of the blade. Sword blades are better suited to the bath style of annealling..ensuring the whole blade reachs the correct temperature at the same time. At least..that's the way I recall the processes from my reading of the process ?? Please correct me if I'm wrong. BTW..this is a very *basic* desc of the heat treatment process..not a explanation of the way japanese blades were traditionally made. For that..you need a pretty big book, and YEARS of practice
|
|
|
Post by Vincent Dolan on Aug 22, 2012 7:20:51 GMT
Welcome, Fullmetal! I'm going to agree with Blackthorn here on much of what he said and add my own 2 cents to the equation. 1. As Blackthorn said, forget manga, but I can see how you can use Tensa Zangetsu as an example, as it's fairly well known among many people. More importantly, it's actually not that unusual a sword... At least, before his recent upgrade, that is. For reference, Ichigo was 5'9" when he had his original Tensa Zangetsu; 2/3 of that would be 46" overall or just under 4'. An o-katana or short nodachi, for sure, but nothing all that extreme, particularly when pitted against his shikai. That said, here's a thread put together by our own Bill Swiger that details the statistics of two-handed longswords from a Western perspective. As you can see, they could get quite larger, but were still usable.2. Again, as Blackthorn pointed out, swords don't need to cut bone to be effective. If you cut halfway through a man's leg, but get stopped by the femur, does the sword fail? No, because he's still maimed and out of the fight, probably permanently. Likewise, is the sword a failure if it gets stopped by the spine while slashing through a man's neck? Not one bit, because he's dead. Dead is dead and chopping someone in half, while impressive, is unnecessary and wastes more energy than what you get out of it. 3. Personally, while I don't think it would weaken a sword to add a sawtooth pattern to its spine, I think it's completely unnecessary and, this is just my opinion here, stupid. It makes it look like those flea market tacticool swords you pick up for 10$ that are made out of poorly tempered 440 stainless that'd snap if you looked at it wrong. 4-6. I'll leave up to more qualified minds than mine, though #6 would be well answered by Brotherbanzai or Brendan Olszowy, custom sword makers who participate in this forum. 7. As Adrian pointed out, it depends primarily on the skill of the wielder, but there's no such thing as a blade that wouldn't dull or chip in a situation like that. It is, at once, the most sought after technique in smithing, yet also the most dreaded, because if someone invented a steel that, once it took an edge, never chipped, dulled, or broke, he would become obscenely rich, but would also put himself and every other bladesmith out of business, because nobody would ever need to buy a knife or sword if one of theirs broke and those who make a living sharpening blades would be out of a job since nobody'd ever need to sharpen another blade. That said, in a zombie apocalypse scenario, though I'm loathe to admit it, something like a poleaxe would probably be the ideal melee weapon, as it has a sharp stabbing spike that penetrates most forms of armor, so a skull would pose no difficulties, there's an axe head for chopping off limbs if needed, and there's a heavy warhammer to crush skulls. Best of all, they're generally 6-7' long, so it'd keep them zombies at a distance.
|
|
|
Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 22, 2012 9:04:48 GMT
Welcome to the forums mate. Plenty of good answers there above. I do not know anime well but googling gave me this example, and I looked it's stats: www.trueswords.com/ichigo-bankai ... -2556.html Is this similar to what you are looking for? One hard thing in anime is that the sword size seem to shift at least in some cases I've seen. Sword can look 2m long in some actions and 1m long in some. I guess it's due to that drawing style and angles. And there are replicas of this same sword ranging from 40" overall to 68" overall. I'm a lover of big Japanese swords too, so I can offer you some insight, and will focuse mostly on that aspect of the questions. As you said 48-52", you are most likely looking at the blade length in c.36" (91cm) range, if you don't want really long tsuka. The blade over the length of 3 shaku (90,9cm) is considered as odachi in Japanese classification. Very large swords were not historically really popular in Japan. These odachi (in use) date mainly to a quite small timeframe in Japan (Nambokucho-early Muromachi), time before, and during the beginning of the use of katana. 1. The sword can be pretty long before it becomes "weak", if it's well made. And every proportion of this larger sword need to be in relation to increased length. This is a factor that most (I'm tempted to say all) of the cheaper Chinese sword makers don't realize. If you don't alter any other propotions of the sword than length properly, I'm thinking the c. 3 shaku length is about most I'd go. This is already quite a bit longer and also heavier than the average katana. Here is a comparison shot to show the difference between regular length katana, small odachi and large odachi. Then on to really long swords like the anime sword and PC Odachi on that pic. To be honest, even with all of my love for overly sized swords, there is a point where a polearm starts to be more effective than a sword. Due to way swords are constructed, a really long blade is not ideal. The more mass and length you have behind habaki, the more cumbersome it gets. After seeing few and owning one cheap Chinese odachi, I'll say avoid them. Even if they might look cool, their quality is subpar, and I would consider them dangerous. PC Odachi is the only very large Japanese style production sword I can recommend, unfortunately it's quite expensive but it's understandable due to difficulties in making of properly made sword of this size. PC Odachi is fully functional and properly tempered sword. I love mine, even though I admit it's already in the range where polearm might be better functionality wise. Here is an awesome video of James Williams cutting a 10 mat bundle with PC Odachi. Don't know how intrested you are in the manufacturing process of the Japanese sword, but I'll throw in few links as you mentioned lots of smithing related stuff. Traditional process in pictures and with short explanation: www.samuraisword.com/REFERENCE/m ... rocess.htm Here is an amazing book by Yoshindo Yoshihara and Kapps: www.amazon.com/The-Art-Japanese- ... nese+sword For many questions it's really hard to give one defining answer. For thickness I might say you're well equipped with a properly made Japanese style production sword of average length that has 6-8mm of thickness near habaki. Then of course you'll have to ponder what is a good production sword.
|
|
|
Post by fullmetal56 on Aug 22, 2012 20:07:44 GMT
Thanks for all the answers guys I really appreciate it! I have one more question that I forgot to ask. At what point on the sword is it balanced? I don't exactly understand the balance thing. I mean is it supposed to be balanced on one finger above the tsuba at the habaki? Is it supposed to be balanced while holding it with one hand? Can someone please explain this to me.
|
|
|
Post by Adrian Jordan on Aug 22, 2012 21:08:01 GMT
Balance is subjective to the individual sword. Most have a point of balance between 4 and 6 inches past the tsuba. You can balance it on a finger, a pencil, a wedge, ect. The further out into the blade the POB is the more blade-heavy it will feel.
|
|
|
Post by MOK on Aug 22, 2012 21:23:27 GMT
Depends on the sword. The center of balance is just one aspect of a sword's mass distribution, which as a whole goes a long way towards defining how the sword handles. As a general guideline, cutting swords tend to have the weight centered closer to the point to put some substance behind your blows, and thrusting swords closer to the hand to help your control of the point, but the optimal placement varies from sword to sword, affected by all the other features of the weapon and its desired handling qualities - and this applies even within katana, specifically. Some balance closer to the hand, some further down the blade. Most often you'll find the CoB somewhere within four to eight inches from the tsuba, but it doesn't really matter as long as the sword handles properly - and the only way to determine that is to actually handle it (or ask someone who has, natch).
|
|