Makoto Pat
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Post by Makoto Pat on Aug 21, 2012 4:44:33 GMT
I am going to buy a folder for a friend who is going back to the Middle East. He is a Hell-of-a-friend. I do not need specific brands and all. I want to know length, weight, and blade geometry and the like. What is going to be useful. Currently I am thinking of a 5.25" closed, with a 4" blade with partial serration and a spear point also liner locking. Will that be a good combat/EDC for a guy over there? If you have a specific brand you really like please share it with me, too. I just want useful specific combat folder that can fit in with the gear, gear that i do not know anything about as a civilian. I am familiar with knives and martial art in class, but not in the field. Meaning I have used pocket knives for work which involves boxes, wood, and wires not fighting. In fact I avoid that job but greatly respect those that do it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 7:11:00 GMT
I would never get partial serrations on any knife that's pocket size. All you're going to do is take away half of the usable cutting edge of that knife. Instead of a useful 4" blade, you will now have a tiny 2" blade sitting on top of a saw. Every time you try to cut something with a nice sweep of the knife, you'll get hung up on that saw before you can complete your cut. If you want a saw, buy a saw. If you want a knife, buy a knife. Don't try to mix them on the same edge.
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Makoto Pat
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Post by Makoto Pat on Aug 21, 2012 11:52:09 GMT
Ned Thanks for sharing. I was not a fan of serration my self for many years. However I recently purchased a new type of serration I have found very useful. I have two serrated folders I use as EDC's. One is from Victronix. What they did was what I always thought would solve many serration issues, move the serration away from the "whittlin" portion of the blade. And Veff serration which is larger and more aggressive in its angle of cutting. These are my new discoveries and I have cut well with them. I also own a saw in my bug-out bag and get what you say. I appreciate it.
What blade shape do you find most useful?
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Post by GUEST on Aug 21, 2012 15:19:36 GMT
A clip point or a drop point are the 2 most useful all around designs. The knife will see more general purpose duties than it will never see fighting. A clip or drop point also make very good fighting knives, just not tactical cool. Will problaby be used to clean finger nails alot.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 15:42:57 GMT
Yup, I totally agree with Fallen on that. Clip and drop are what I use.
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Makoto Pat
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Post by Makoto Pat on Aug 21, 2012 16:25:54 GMT
Fallen and Ned, thanks. You have spoken what I thought but have not experience. Most knives these days, and goodly so, are not for combat. I honestly would love it if my friend never had use for any of his combat gear....for more than the obvious reason.
Current question I am most concerned with came up in another thread....How big of a knife should you carry. I would like it if when my friend returns he can carry this camping and as an EDC. I personally like as close to 3" as I can get but in my job carry 2.5", Clip point.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 17:09:45 GMT
For camping you don't want a folder. Of course any knife is better than no knife, but a folder is about the worst choice you could bring with you for that purpose. You can't expect that almost non-existent tang to hold out in the woods, and it is only going to create a major safety hazard for your fingers. The blades themselves are often made weak and easier to snap, 'cause if they make them too strong then the tang would become an even greater weak-point, trying to hold a thick blade. The blades need to balance out that nearly non-existent tang. If you want an EDC that's small and compact enough to be a pocket knife, but still rugged and durable enough to be a camping knife, then you need a fixed blade compact like a neck knife. They're small enough to be worn as a necklace or put in your pocket. I like mine around my neck, as it is more personal that way although many of my neck knives ended up in my pocket instead because of poor sheath design - either a poor locking system or too uncomfortable of a profile. My current neck knife has a very slim profile sheath and excellent positive lock, so I'm back to neck wear again. This is the one I use... The blade is barely over 2" long, but you would be amazed at the difficult tasks it can cut through with ease! No folder with a big honkin' 6" blade that I've used can handle the tough outdoors tasks that this 2" blade can take. This little knife can cut through frozen beef right out of the freezer, as well as a butcher knife. The difference between a folder and a fixed blade is night and day when it comes to any kind of heavy cutting, especially in the woods. Notice how this one uses a superior positive grip along with a full-edged blade with no serrations, and a clip point. My ideal compact for cutting practicality: I use a folder ONLY for light-duty cutting around the city, and prefer it ONLY for convenience. In terms of cutting, my little neck knife outshines any size folder in every way except self-defense. For a weapon the folder is better because it allows a much longer blade for a pocket-size knife. To be compact, a fixed blade needs to be really short and is therefore of minimal use in a defensive situation. These knives are tools, not weapons... but excellent tools they are. Of course if size is not an issue then a larger fixed-blade knife could be better, but a small fixed-blade is infinitely stronger than a large folder. It's not the size of the blade that counts.... lol. So if you're looking at an EDC/Camping tool, then you're looking at a completely different knife than an urban weapon. Though certainly one can be used as the other. Folders make great urban weapons because they can pack a long, flesh-damaging blade in a small frame and they are "accepted" by city folk, but they make poor tools as they are very weak. As mentioned a knife is almost always used as a tool and very rarely used as a weapon. So personally, I would rather have a good working tool that can be used as a weapon in a pinch, rather than the other way around.
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Makoto Pat
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Post by Makoto Pat on Aug 21, 2012 19:37:54 GMT
Ned, I do want to buy a folder. I find the newer locking mechanisms and convenience make them safer and stronger and ready-to-use for the purposes for which they are designed. I am merely discussing the different jobs suited to different size and shapes of blades. Like Fallen and you suggested a drop or clip point for general use purposes is a good choice. I also do not endorse anyone to use a knife as an offensive weapon, urban or otherwise when there are more socially conscience and legal and effective avenues to for a civilian to pursue. I.e., mace, batons, kubatons, tasers....In a war zone or combat there are simple put, guns and such. I want to know which knives are compatible to carry with the gear used by soldiers deployed in the Middle East. I also have carried a folder and several other blades with me into the woods for task specific purposes. I sometimes caring a small blade very similar to above and sometimes for fun I carry my Cold Steel Trail Master. I always carry my Swiss Army knife and multi-tool.
I actually like the CRKT you suggested for as bag knife. I personally cannot stand to carry a neck knife because I constantly find them hanging in either my field of vision while I work or in the way of the work itself. I believe my friend will not be able to carry a neck either with the essential gear. If I carry one I lengthen the string and wear over one shoulder with the knife hanging under an arm. Let me also specify a knife is primarily a tool in my training and opine, but it can be a weapon but there is a great legal, social, and , psychological, and effective range issues that make it a last resort sort of weapon. I know in the above I mentioned combat, but allow me to clarify. Primary function is a compact EDC and a I hope you never need it a weapon. Plus my friend will be carrying standard military weapons. So on this point we truly agree. "So personally, I would rather have a good working tool that can be used as a weapon in a pinch, rather than the other way around."
I truly thank you for all your advice and effort and most of for sharing your experiences.
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Post by GUEST on Aug 21, 2012 20:03:49 GMT
I would get him a Benchmade, Syperco, or Cold Steel, those are the ones I known well and will hold up well to hard use. I prefer a 3 3/4 to 4 inch blade, but what it's going to be used for a 3 in blade would do. While you're at it get a Cold Steel Lawman for me.
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Post by Mr.Wallace on Aug 21, 2012 20:27:28 GMT
I've been reading in to the minimalist Bowie a lot, ironically. Ned can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain it also comes with a belt loop attachment (i don't like neck knives myself.) They seem solid, I'll probably grab one.
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Makoto Pat
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Post by Makoto Pat on Aug 21, 2012 21:15:09 GMT
Thanks! Fallen...I'll send that ASAP. Those are really cool. If my knife is too big it scares my colleagues. So I carry a small 2.5"-er and keep my kit in my large shoulder bag.
Mr.Wallace, I'll count bowies as my all time favorite blade geometry. I have until recently owned more Cold Steel blades than any other. As for bowies, drop points, and clip points I want an Ansa.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 23:10:45 GMT
Yup - a very versatile, removable belt loop attachment that holds the knife parallel along the length of the belt instead of perpendicularly against it. Keeps it neatly out of the way and allows ease of sitting and getting into your pockets, but is also a perfect position to draw from a comfortable, natural (non-threatening) position. This is an urban safety trick because a sideways hold like this allows you to wear the knife in front of you instead of pushing it to the side in order to sit properly. That prevents your knife from being drawn by your opponent from the back to use against you or to disarm you. It'll even hold the knife inside the belt if you want to keep it more low profile. This belt clip can be removed to make a slimmer profile if wearing in the pocket or on the neck, but attached makes a really nice little belt knife. I used to wear mine either on the belt or in my pocket, whichever was appropriate at the time, with the belt attachment on either way. I only take the attachment off to wear it around the neck, which I've started doing more often again (like I used to way back when). In short, it's a versatile sheath system that can be worn in any number of ways.
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Post by GUEST on Aug 22, 2012 6:48:08 GMT
Ned for a general purpose utility knife it has the worst handle I've never seen. It locks you handle to one position keeping you from preforming a lot of simple task. Looks like it was designed to pull in all the people who want a tactical cool knife. Throught history the simple designs that work have survived.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Aug 22, 2012 6:56:36 GMT
Zero Tolerance makes some of the burliest folders I've seen around, but charge a premium price for most. I've heard a lot of good about the Cold Steel Voyager and Recon models as well, and those are very reasonable in price. Emerson also makes strong folders, but like ZT they charge you an arm and a leg. A step higher and you see brands like Medford Knife and Tool. Very expensive, but they are built like monster tanks.
As far as design goes, you'd want a larger blade(4"+), an extremely strong lock and a tough blade. You also will want to watch the weight. The most popular shapes I've seen are clip and tanto points, with at least a little curve. If it is held together with screws instead of rivets then it allows for breakdown, thus is easier to clean and repair/adjust. I've also seen that thumb holes are liked because they are easy to deploy with those thick gloves, but I'm not sure that they are better than a stud or flipper. Tough handle material should be used. Steel, titanium, G10, Krayton, Zytel. Wood or regular plastic will warp and break easier.
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Makoto Pat
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Post by Makoto Pat on Aug 22, 2012 12:52:54 GMT
I agree Fallen. Condor knives and Anza have similar blade designs with more multi-purpose handles. And I think they are really cool too.
Thanks to Mr. Jordan. +1! You actually answered my question. And I have now but to select from the few knives I have in that category, many of which you have listed. I salute you, sir. I take it from the tone of your response you have been active military? or have close friends like myself?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Aug 22, 2012 18:31:58 GMT
I have friends and family who have been in the military, and like to read interviews of military personnel about what they look for in certain weapons, especially in combat vs. other types of applications. Sometimes it's pretty amazing how different a folder that would be considered a self-defense weapon by a civilian differs from what would be considered by personnel in a real combat situation.
Anyway, glad I could help.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2012 18:41:22 GMT
We're talking about a neck knife with just over a 2" blade, Fallen. The handle on a neck knife is very small and if you'll notice on mine it only has room for 3 fingers, not 4... which is the common size for a neck knife handle. You don't use these handles in various positions as there is no room or need to vary your grip - you hold a neck knife in the one position that affords you the very best grip possible. A positive, safe grip is what is generally lacking in the neck knife arena. When your blade is only 2" and you only have 3 fingers space on the handle, your precision grip looks just like your whittling grip which looks just like your hacking grip. Such a short blade is like a small extension of your hand.
I would not want a grip like this on a full-sized knife, but this is not that. If we were talking about a full-sized knife that can fit your hand then I would agree with your assessment, but in this case I have to wholeheartedly disagree. I have been using small pocket-sized neck knives for decades and I have never had one with a more comfortable, finger-safe grip than this one, which have allowed me to use it in any more versatile gripping positions than this one does. Try it out for yourself and you'll see. This knife is a surprising workhorse for its tiny size. It is far from just "tacticool", as everyday use will prove. The tough tasks I use this knife for would leave me open to slipping on the blade and cutting my fingers using other neck knives, but precision work is handled just as easily. It is a very practical knife for practical people who care about comfort, safety, and durability.
I've always been a fan of neck knives (not necessarily as a neck knife, more often as a pocket knife) for having something strong which can be kept on you at all times, and have always had one with me over the years. Thus, I know the big weaknesses of a neck knife and what you are expected to give up. This knife has done the best job so far of answering those specific weaknesses you find in a pocket-sized compact fixed blade. Large knives don't have the same design limitations.
(Yes, I know this is also off-topic from the OP who is not looking for a fixed blade and is dead-set on a folder. I just want to answer any relevant questions since I had brought the suggestion up, though no longer directed at the thread's topic. Just so nobody thinks I'm trying to derail the OP's purpose or sway his decision in any way by explaining further.)
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Post by GUEST on Aug 22, 2012 21:12:54 GMT
I've been using small knives a lot longer than you to do all kinds of tasks. It is better to be able to use variable grips on the handle to do different thing. Not just with pocket knives but all size of knives. I known neck knives very well too. If that knife works for you ok. But the handle design is not a good general purpose design. I've seen thing like come and go but the good simple handle designs always win out. It still forces you handle to go into the finger grooves, I've ever liked finger grooves on any knife.
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Makoto Pat
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Post by Makoto Pat on Aug 23, 2012 2:13:54 GMT
I am with you, Fallen. I have small hands and fingers grooves just don't fit. I also like to be able to build up the handle for a better grip because I have severe arthritis and need to protect my hands. The only exception is I like a finger choil or a slight guard to prevent slippage on fine work such as trap/snare parts and my wood working in general. But those fit on nice simple universal handle designs.
I thank you for sharing your knowledge in polite and kind manner.
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Makoto Pat
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Post by Makoto Pat on Aug 23, 2012 2:27:40 GMT
Thanks. I appreciate you understanding my questions point of view. Where do read these items. I would like to read them as well Because in my civilian world I do not consider a knife to a weapon and therefore prefer smaller folder to do their appointed tasks and for convenience of carry and readiness. I know I can in an emergency use one as a weapon. I also cut with my large knives for fun. I hope to never need to defend myself, but I am well trained and prepared. I keep several more socially and therefore legal options for defense. My favorite is a heavy wooden combat cane given to me by the guy who I buying knife for. We grew up together and Trained our base martial arts together. He is tallest man in my profile picture. But on topic. I have selected a knife with a 'flipper', a large flipper that has the specs you mentioned and the style he likes.
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